Need input: Wierd Powerflash behavior

[prc1]

I've updated my home theater with a new A/V processor that has 3
trigger voltage outputs. I installed three amplifiers for the theater
in my basement, and these do not have trigger inputs. They do have
hard on/off switching with a rocker switch on their front panels. I
had the idea of hooking up X10 Pro PSC01 Powerflash interfaces to the
trigger outputs, then plugging each amp into an appliance switch. When
the preamp turns onand the PSC01's are in the proper setup modes
(Input: voltage, operating mode: C) the PSC01s send an "on" command
as they're getting +12 VDC on their inputs and the amps turn on. When
the preamp turns off, the voltage goes away and the PSC01s send an
"off" signal. The amps then go off. Simple, right?

Yes and no. The PSC01's are plugged into an outlet strip that's
plugged into the same outlet that the amps (and their appliance
modules) are plugged into. Everything's on the same phase and side of
the breaker panel. The amps will turn on A-OK, but will not turn off.

Troubleshooting: I've used the TEST buttons on the PSC01s, and
everything turns on and off as it should. I've used a mini controller
and can manually turn the amps on and off with no problem. I've used
an handheld RF controller and again, everything works. The appliance
modules will respond to the "All lights off" command just fine. I've
measured the voltage at the PSC01's inputs. The +12VDC is switching
on and off as it should.

So, why would the Off commands not be transmitted, or why wouldn't the
appliance modules respond if it were being transmitted? What else
could I try to isolate the problem?
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **

[prc1]

I figured out the problem--it's a data collision. When the preamp
powers up, there's a 1-second delay between the A & B trigger outputs
so everything turns on. However, when the power goes OFF, there's no
delay. Both PSC01s send a code-specific off command and they
collide--thus nothing gets turned off.

There's no adjustment in the preamp to delay the trigger outputs on
power off, so how could I implement a power delay for the input
voltage on one of the PSC01s? Would an electrolytic cap across the
inputs give enough delay? And, when I install a thrid PSC01 later
I'll need to delay it's power off even longer...


On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:55:11 -0500, prc1 <prc1CRAP@woh.CRAPrr.comCRAP>
wrote:

>I've updated my home theater with a new A/V processor that has 3
>trigger voltage outputs. I installed three amplifiers for the theater
>in my basement, and these do not have trigger inputs. They do have
>hard on/off switching with a rocker switch on their front panels. I
>had the idea of hooking up X10 Pro PSC01 Powerflash interfaces to the
>trigger outputs, then plugging each amp into an appliance switch. When
>the preamp turns onand the PSC01's are in the proper setup modes
>(Input: voltage, operating mode: C) the PSC01s send an "on" command
>as they're getting +12 VDC on their inputs and the amps turn on. When
>the preamp turns off, the voltage goes away and the PSC01s send an
>"off" signal. The amps then go off. Simple, right?
>
>Yes and no. The PSC01's are plugged into an outlet strip that's
>plugged into the same outlet that the amps (and their appliance
>modules) are plugged into. Everything's on the same phase and side of
>the breaker panel. The amps will turn on A-OK, but will not turn off.
>
>Troubleshooting: I've used the TEST buttons on the PSC01s, and
>everything turns on and off as it should. I've used a mini controller
>and can manually turn the amps on and off with no problem. I've used
>an handheld RF controller and again, everything works. The appliance
>modules will respond to the "All lights off" command just fine. I've
>measured the voltage at the PSC01's inputs. The +12VDC is switching
>on and off as it should.
>
>So, why would the Off commands not be transmitted, or why wouldn't the
>appliance modules respond if it were being transmitted? What else
>could I try to isolate the problem?
>** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **

[Dan Lanciani]

In article <hjjaj513o9n89dna66a4t3i59r66p2823a@4ax.com>, prc1CRAP@woh.CRAPrr.comCRAP (prc1) writes:

| I figured out the problem--it's a data collision. When the preamp
| powers up, there's a 1-second delay between the A & B trigger outputs
| so everything turns on. However, when the power goes OFF, there's no
| delay. Both PSC01s send a code-specific off command and they
| collide--thus nothing gets turned off.
|
| There's no adjustment in the preamp to delay the trigger outputs on
| power off, so how could I implement a power delay for the input
| voltage on one of the PSC01s? Would an electrolytic cap across the
| inputs give enough delay?

Yes, possibly, but this all seems unnecessarily complicated. Why not
use a single PSC01 and handle any sequencing (do you really need it at
all?) on the far side.

If you do try a capacitor you should probably add a blocking diode.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

[Robert L Bass]

"prc1" wrote:
>
> I figured out the problem--it's a data collision. When the preamp
> powers up, there's a 1-second delay between the A & B trigger outputs
> so everything turns on...

There's a current sensing AC outlet for use with stereo systems, etc. called
"CCS-4". Following is a link to a store that sells them. I don't know this
company so due diligence but the product looks suitable and the price isn't
much.

http://www.ada.net/products/bb/ccs_4.php

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

==============================>
Bass Home Electronics
DIY Alarm and Home Automation Store
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
Sales & Service 941-870-2310
Fax 941-870-3252
==============================>

[prc1]

Hi Dan, and thanks for the reply.

Yes, sequencing is necessary. I have four stereo amps to handle the
seven channels (and will probably add a fifth amp to the stack for the
sub). Depending on the peramp's mode I wanted to switch amps on and
off to conserve power. Each amp at max output pulls 8 amps.

I thought I might have to build some sort of power sequencing box at
the amp end, set off by a trigger from the preamp. However I didn't
want to get into that (every one of my projects seems to involve some
sort of jerry-rigged solution these days!) and thought X10 might be
the least-expensive but reasonable solution. I've looked at some
off-the-shelf triggered outlets (like Mr. Bass recommended) but these
are typically > $150.00 and only do one or two outlets.


On 26 Dec 2009 00:03:07 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

>In article <hjjaj513o9n89dna66a4t3i59r66p2823a@4ax.com>, prc1CRAP@woh.CRAPrr.comCRAP (prc1) writes:
>
>| I figured out the problem--it's a data collision. When the preamp
>| powers up, there's a 1-second delay between the A & B trigger outputs
>| so everything turns on. However, when the power goes OFF, there's no
>| delay. Both PSC01s send a code-specific off command and they
>| collide--thus nothing gets turned off.
>|
>| There's no adjustment in the preamp to delay the trigger outputs on
>| power off, so how could I implement a power delay for the input
>| voltage on one of the PSC01s? Would an electrolytic cap across the
>| inputs give enough delay?
>
>Yes, possibly, but this all seems unnecessarily complicated. Why not
>use a single PSC01 and handle any sequencing (do you really need it at
>all?) on the far side.
>
>If you do try a capacitor you should probably add a blocking diode.
>
> Dan Lanciani
> ddl@danlan.*com
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **

[prc1]

Robert,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd looked into similar products but was
turned off by the price. I think these are > $150.00, and I'd need
three to start.


On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:45:27 -0500, "Robert L Bass"
<noreply@bogusemail.com> wrote:

>"prc1" wrote:
>>
>> I figured out the problem--it's a data collision. When the preamp
>> powers up, there's a 1-second delay between the A & B trigger outputs
>> so everything turns on...
>
>There's a current sensing AC outlet for use with stereo systems, etc. called
>"CCS-4". Following is a link to a store that sells them. I don't know this
>company so due diligence but the product looks suitable and the price isn't
>much.
>
>http://www.ada.net/products/bb/ccs_4.php
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **

[Ronbo]

prc1 wrote:
> I've updated my home theater with a new A/V processor that has 3
> trigger voltage outputs. I installed three amplifiers for the theater
> in my basement, and these do not have trigger inputs. They do have
> hard on/off switching with a rocker switch on their front panels. I
> had the idea of hooking up X10 Pro PSC01 Powerflash interfaces to the
> trigger outputs, then plugging each amp into an appliance switch. When
> the preamp turns onand the PSC01's are in the proper setup modes
> (Input: voltage, operating mode: C) the PSC01s send an "on" command
> as they're getting +12 VDC on their inputs and the amps turn on. When
> the preamp turns off, the voltage goes away and the PSC01s send an
> "off" signal. The amps then go off. Simple, right?
>
> Yes and no. The PSC01's are plugged into an outlet strip that's
> plugged into the same outlet that the amps (and their appliance
> modules) are plugged into. Everything's on the same phase and side of
> the breaker panel. The amps will turn on A-OK, but will not turn off.
>
> Troubleshooting: I've used the TEST buttons on the PSC01s, and
> everything turns on and off as it should. I've used a mini controller
> and can manually turn the amps on and off with no problem. I've used
> an handheld RF controller and again, everything works. The appliance
> modules will respond to the "All lights off" command just fine. I've
> measured the voltage at the PSC01's inputs. The +12VDC is switching
> on and off as it should.
>
> So, why would the Off commands not be transmitted, or why wouldn't the
> appliance modules respond if it were being transmitted? What else
> could I try to isolate the problem?
> ** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **


It sounds like the power supplies of the amps are jamming the signal
from the PF module. That would account for why they turn on but not off.
Have you tried different house codes or unit codes? Also don't let the
fact that a handheld does shut them off. I have had that problem many
times when my CM11 would not activate something yet my RF transceiver
will. Also if your equipment includes an LCD or Plasma set those Power
Supplies are extremely troublesome to X10 signals. Actually I have that
condition with a lamp module close to me Samsung LCD.

Hope this helps, Ron

[prc1]

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I decided to try the capacitor
approach and (Thanks Dan!) added a blocking diode. A 2200 uF gives me
an ~ 22 second delay, eliminating the X10 signal collision. I'm going
to try using a smaller cap for a shorter delay and I think that'll do
it. MUCH simpler than writing a program for the HCS to watch for the
off signal, then sequence the turn off of the amps via software. :)


On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 14:55:11 -0500, prc1 <prc1CRAP@woh.CRAPrr.comCRAP>
wrote:

>I've updated my home theater with a new A/V processor that has 3
>trigger voltage outputs. I installed three amplifiers for the theater
>in my basement, and these do not have trigger inputs. They do have
>hard on/off switching with a rocker switch on their front panels. I
>had the idea of hooking up X10 Pro PSC01 Powerflash interfaces to the
>trigger outputs, then plugging each amp into an appliance switch. When
>the preamp turns onand the PSC01's are in the proper setup modes
>(Input: voltage, operating mode: C) the PSC01s send an "on" command
>as they're getting +12 VDC on their inputs and the amps turn on. When
>the preamp turns off, the voltage goes away and the PSC01s send an
>"off" signal. The amps then go off. Simple, right?
>
>Yes and no. The PSC01's are plugged into an outlet strip that's
>plugged into the same outlet that the amps (and their appliance
>modules) are plugged into. Everything's on the same phase and side of
>the breaker panel. The amps will turn on A-OK, but will not turn off.
>
>Troubleshooting: I've used the TEST buttons on the PSC01s, and
>everything turns on and off as it should. I've used a mini controller
>and can manually turn the amps on and off with no problem. I've used
>an handheld RF controller and again, everything works. The appliance
>modules will respond to the "All lights off" command just fine. I've
>measured the voltage at the PSC01's inputs. The +12VDC is switching
>on and off as it should.
>
>So, why would the Off commands not be transmitted, or why wouldn't the
>appliance modules respond if it were being transmitted? What else
>could I try to isolate the problem?
>** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **