Structured (low voltage) wiring installation estimates

[bdk]

I am currently in the middle of a remodel and I am adding a lot of low
voltage wiring. I, roughly, plan on having the following installed:

29 speaker drops
11 audio control drops
23 cat5 or cat6 drops
12 Bundle (2cat5/2RG6) drops
15 component (3 RG6) drops

I recently received a bid, but I am not sure what the normal cost of
installation is therefore I cannot validate whether I am getting a
resonable estimate. I understand that I can contact a few other
installers to get bids, but I am running out of time before the sheet
rock goes up, therefore is anyone aware of any resources which can help
me to semi-accurately determine if the quote I am receiving is fair?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Robert L Bass]

> I am currently in the middle of a remodel and
> I am adding a lot of low voltage wiring...

Why not just DIY and save a few thousand dollars? This stuff is not rocket
science. You and a helper (perhaps your SO) could probably prewire the
whole job in one weekend. Cable is relatively inexpensive and readily
available. Hardware, including speakers and controls can usually be
purchased online for a small fraction of the price an integrator may need to
charge.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Lewis Gardner]

Robert L Bass wrote:
>>I am currently in the middle of a remodel and
>>I am adding a lot of low voltage wiring...
>
>
> Why not just DIY and save a few thousand dollars? This stuff is not rocket
> science. You and a helper (perhaps your SO) could probably prewire the
> whole job in one weekend. Cable is relatively inexpensive and readily
> available. Hardware, including speakers and controls can usually be
> purchased online for a small fraction of the price an integrator may need to
> charge.
>

He is looking at 90 drops. More than a weekend project for DIY.

[Robert L Bass]

> He is looking at 90 drops. More than a weekend project for DIY.

Two people could still do it in a weekend. The trick is to plan everything
out before starting. Pull multiple runs together wherever possible. Mark
both ends of every cable as you go. I like to bring a checklist showing
every drop for each room and mark them off as I go.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Lewis Gardner]

Robert L Bass wrote:
>>He is looking at 90 drops. More than a weekend project for DIY.
>
>
> Two people could still do it in a weekend. The trick is to plan everything
> out before starting. Pull multiple runs together wherever possible. Mark
> both ends of every cable as you go. I like to bring a checklist showing
> every drop for each room and mark them off as I go.
>

Even with planning it would be a killer weekend. Without planning it
would be a disaster.

90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours

20 minutes per drop is quite fast (even for pros) since for each drop
you need to:

1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).

2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer drills won't cut
it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a stout drill and heavy duty
extension cord.

3. Pull and label cables.

4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.

Not included in the above 30 hours is time to set up and get out twice
since you can't do all the work in one day. Getting all the cable and
tools in and out will eat up at least 1 hour per day. So you are looking
at two 16 hour days. My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such
a feat. I cannot think of any I have met that could do it in two 16 hour
days.

I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything
went well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per
drop. This was with a crew of three. For the actual pull one man was on
the spools, one man on the end of the wire and one man in the middle to
make corners. This was as fast as I have ever wired a traditional solid
beam two story house with basement. We were rolling.

In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I
ran 21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...


> Mark both ends of every cable as you go.

You really don't need to mark BOTH ends if you have as list or drawing
identifying the non wiring closet endpoints. If you mark the wiring
closet ends that is sufficient to maintain order.

[G. Morgan]

Subject: Re: Structured (low voltage) wiring installation estimates
Newsgroup: comp.home.automation
=> Lewis Gardner <= wrote:

>Even with planning it would be a killer weekend. Without planning it
>would be a disaster.

You forgot that Robert is just trying to sell him the material. He knows damn
well a DIY'er could not accomplish this project in a weekend.


--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

[Frank Stutzman]

G. Morgan <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote:
> Subject: Re: Structured (low voltage) wiring installation estimates
> Newsgroup: comp.home.automation
> => Lewis Gardner <= wrote:

> >Even with planning it would be a killer weekend. Without planning it
> >would be a disaster.

> You forgot that Robert is just trying to sell him the material. He knows damn
> well a DIY'er could not accomplish this project in a weekend.

Ok, so maybe I'm not your average DIY'er. I've done several commerical
installations before I put the 140 drops into my house. I had to do them
in a weekend as my general contractor had me scheduled as the last of the
subs before the drywall guys showed up on Monday.

Anyway with the help of 3 unskilled teenagers we did it without too much
problems in a weekend. I had lots of time to chorograph it all. It also
helped that (with a few exceptions) I had 2 to 6 cables running to a
particular location (pulled multipul cables at one time). The number of
locations was probably only about 35. Also this was only nailing up
outlet boxes and putting in the cable. I terminated it by myself on
nights and weekends for about a month after the house was done.


--
Frank Stutzman

[Lewis Gardner]

Frank Stutzman wrote:
> The number of locations
> was probably only about 35.

In other words you did 35 drops in a weekend with a crew of four people.
It makes no time difference if one cable or ten cables go to a drop.
That is why I consider a "box location" a "drop". The OP's list looked
to me like he thought the same way. But even if he didn't with 29
speaker and 23 cat5 or cat6 drops he is over 50 drops. Still a full
weekend at 20+ hours.

30 to 40 drops is about what I would expect from an motivated DIY crew
in a weekend.

[Frank Stutzman]

Lewis Gardner <lgardner@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote:
> Frank Stutzman wrote:
> > The number of locations
> > was probably only about 35.

> In other words you did 35 drops in a weekend with a crew of four people.
> It makes no time difference if one cable or ten cables go to a drop.
> That is why I consider a "box location" a "drop". The OP's list looked
> to me like he thought the same way. But even if he didn't with 29
> speaker and 23 cat5 or cat6 drops he is over 50 drops. Still a full
> weekend at 20+ hours.

Ah. So we've got a differance in definition.

When I did my commercial installations, I was typically paid by the cable
termination. The term used for this was "a drop".

In a commercial installation it is fairly common to have several hundred
cables run between wiring closets (a MDF to an IDF, if you recognized
those terms). Using your definition, these hundred of cables would be a
single drop. Using mine it would be a hundred drops.

No flame. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen a
proper definition of the term.

--
Frank Stutzman

[Robert L Bass]

"Lewis Gardner" <lgardner@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote in message
news:42307e1e$1_1@news.iglou.com...
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>>>He is looking at 90 drops. More than a weekend project for DIY.
>>
>>
>> Two people could still do it in a weekend. The trick is to plan
>> everything out before starting. Pull multiple runs together wherever
>> possible. Mark both ends of every cable as you go. I like to bring a
>> checklist showing every drop for each room and mark them off as I go.
>>
>
> Even with planning it would be a killer weekend. Without planning it would
> be a disaster.

Any job done without planning is a candidate for disaster.

> 90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours

30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad. I figure
more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers. That's 10-1/2 hours a
day -- still not so bad.

> 20 minutes per drop is quite fast (even for pros) since for each drop you
> need to:
>
> 1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).

3 speakers are three drops. No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or
in-ceiling speakers. Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in 2
minutes flat. Piece of cake.

> 2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer
> drills won't cut it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a
> stout drill and heavy duty extension cord.

Each to his own I guess. For many years I ran a modestly successful
installing dealership. Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt
battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available at
CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a few
percent more.

> 3. Pull and label cables.

Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and easy.
I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends of every
cable. Labels, tags and such often come off during construction. Sharpie
will be there until Jesus comes back.

> 4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.

That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive
rings.

> Not included in the above 30 hours is time to
> set up and get out twice since you can't do all
> the work in one day...

It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill,
hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.

> Getting all the cable and tools in and out will eat
> up at least 1 hour per day...

You're starting to sound like a paid installer. It just doesn't take that
long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.

> So you are looking at two 16 hour days...

Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long. If one of my
guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.

> My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such a feat...

Perhaps that's because you're guessing. I cater to DIYers and I help them
plan jobs all the time. It's not as tough as you might think it is.

> I cannot think of any I have met that could do it in
> two 16 hour days.

You've probably been confusing alarm installers with DIYers. :^)

> I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything went
> well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per drop.
> This was with a crew of three.

Fire your crew. I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a
fortune on wasted labor.

> In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
> floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I ran
> 21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...

Not bad??? I'd call that terrible.

> > Mark both ends of every cable as you go.
>
> You really don't need to mark BOTH ends if you
> have as list or drawing identifying the non wiring
> closet endpoints. If you mark the wiring closet
> ends that is sufficient to maintain order.

Yes you do need to mark both ends. Lists, drawings and legends have a way
of getting lost every now and then. It takes only seconds to write the
cable number and its function at each end. In the event of a mishap you'll
save a lot of time toning out your runs. Also, with cables marked at both
ends two people can do the punch down simultaneously once the home is
finished.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Lewis Gardner]

Before I get started let me clarify a term I use.

A "drop" is a location where wire(s) terminate outside the wire closet.
To me it makes NO difference if there is one wire or ten cables going to
a box, the time required is about the same so I figure labor by the box
(drop). It looks like the OP did the same since he has "15 component (3
RG6) drops" which I count as 15 not 5 or 45 drops. Additionally the OP
said "29 speaker drops". I don't think he is running mono so 29 (being
an odd number) would mean 29 stereo pairs.

Any contractor that charges you a flat price per cable for HA work is
not dealing in reality. The big cost is labor, not materials.


>>90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours
>
>
> 30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad. I figure
> more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers. That's 10-1/2 hours a
> day -- still not so bad.

20 minutes per drop is with two people. Adding an extra person does not
cut the time in half. The only way to cut the time in half is to have
two crews (4 people) pulling wire at the same time. This requires quite
a bit of coordination and is beyond the "You and a helper (perhaps your
SO)" like you proposed to the OP.

How do you get 10.5 hours? 90 drops X 30 minutes per drop = 45 hours (
which is more reasonable for DIY). Over two days that is 22.5 hours per
day. Even divided by 2 (which would be 4 people) that is still 11.25
hours per day.

My original (and unchanged) point is that even at the "professional"
speed of 20 minutes per drop this project would be quite an undertaking
for a two day weekend.


>>1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).
>
>
> 3 speakers are three drops. No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or
> in-ceiling speakers. Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in 2
> minutes flat. Piece of cake.

I use metal backboxes (Speakercraft) for speakers. No big deal in time
or cost since the finish is faster, easier, the sound is better and the
fire rating is maintained. My only point was that for speaker wiring you
have to get the cables to three places which adds about 10 minutes per
stereo pair.


>>2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer
>>drills won't cut it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a
>>stout drill and heavy duty extension cord.
>
>
> Each to his own I guess. For many years I ran a modestly successful
> installing dealership. Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt
> battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available at
> CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a few
> percent more.

18 volt drills will run a 3/4" NailEater (auger bit) all day long with
two batteries. You still need AC drill for the trunk line holes through
joists, top plates, bottom plates and subfloor which can be up to 3" in
diameter and 3.75" deep. No battery drill or 3/8" consumer drill can
handle that.


>>3. Pull and label cables.
>
>
> Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and easy.
> I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends of every
> cable. Labels, tags and such often come off during construction. Sharpie
> will be there until Jesus comes back.

If you have your planning done each box will have some sort of name.
Gather the cables going to that box and tape them together with light
colored electrical tape (white or yellow scotch 33 is the best). Pull
the cable bundle to the box. Get the enough slack on the wire closet end
and tape the bundle again, label the bundle and cut. When you get ready
to finish the wire closet cut the cables out of the bundle one at a
time, terminate and mark your terminations. Saves LOTS of time on jobs
with hundreds of cables.

A home that will hold 29 pairs of speakers is likely "exceptionally large".


>>4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.
>
>
> That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive
> rings.

My point is that it takes time.

Drive rings work fine for alarm wiring and cat3 phone stuff but are not
appropriate for cat5 (or above) or RG6. In horizontal runs the narrow
contact point at the bottom will deform the cable over time possibly
resulting in degraded performance. Also to insert cables in a installed
drive ring a significant amount of twisting is required. If a installer
is not careful cables (especially coaxial) can be damaged.

I prefer driving a 1/2" NM staple in line with the cable bundle and
attaching the bundle with cable ties (2 or 3 on horizontal runs) or
velcro straps. You don't want the cables to deform over time. I have
seen RG6 degrade after installation to where it would not support a
satellite signal.


>>Not included in the above 30 hours is time to
>>set up and get out twice since you can't do all
>>the work in one day...
>
>
> It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill,
> hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.
>
>
>>Getting all the cable and tools in and out will eat
>>up at least 1 hour per day...
>
>
> You're starting to sound like a paid installer. It just doesn't take that
> long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.

I am a paid installer that does top notch work and I am quite fast. The
OPs drop list would result in a minimum of 120 cables. At 90' per run
that is 10800' of cable. That is at least 11 boxes. Everything takes
time and time goes by quickly when you are on deadline. I don't think 30
minutes for set up and 30 minutes for tear down are unreasonable so 1
hour per day is a good estimate.


>>So you are looking at two 16 hour days...
>
>
> Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long. If one of my
> guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.

I never said it was going to take an hour to unload the truck. The TOTAL
time alloted for set up and tear down is 1 hour per day. A guy has to
pee sometime and at 20 minutes per drop you don't have time for much
besides wire work. One hour per day is fairly stingy. With "real"
workmen you have 30 min for lunch and two 15 min breaks. A homeowner
with drywallers on the way has a bit more motivation.


>>My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such a feat...
>
>
> Perhaps that's because you're guessing. I cater to DIYers and I help them
> plan jobs all the time. It's not as tough as you might think it is.

No I'm not guessing. I have wired a bunch houses and I keep decent
records. Unless you are Superman or Joe Fumblefingers it is going to
take you around 20 to 30 minutes per drop to do HA type prewires (new
construction, 1 to 6 cables per drop).


>>I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything went
>>well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per drop.
>>This was with a crew of three.
>
>
> Fire your crew. I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a
> fortune on wasted labor.

I would like to see a crew that could do the job faster. That job had
130 cables which worked out to around 20,000 feet of cable. The cost on
the wire alone was $2428.50. My estimate was was within 1% of the actual
cost for the prewire. All of this AND part of the basement was a
crawlspace due to rock.


>>In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
>>floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I ran
>>21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...
>
>
> Not bad??? I'd call that terrible.

I would like to see you do better. That job had 70 cables (6,000 feet).
If you want to say each cable is a drop then that is 9 minutes per.


> with cables marked at both ends two people can do the
> punch down simultaneously once the home is finished.

One guy in the wiring closet and one guy at the wall jacks. The only one
that has a bunch of cables to sort is the guy in the closet. The guy
doing the wall jacks hooks the white RG6 to the white jack. the black
RG6 to the black jack, the grey catX to the gray jack and the white catX
to the white jack. Not hard.

Labeling each wire with a sharpie is time consuming and can be covered
if they spray paint which is very common for walls these days. It also
only works on light colored wires. Whatever, my system works for me and
your system worked for you when you were installing alarms.


A diversity of viewpoints is what makes this forum fun. I don't think we
are really that different in our time estimations. You say "30 minutes
per drop for first timers" I say 20 to 30 minutes for normal people. I
can't imagine that you actually think adding an hour per day for
miscellaneous tasks is excessive.

I think where we vary is that you are selling something and have
minimized the effort on what looks like a fairly large job. Anyone
installing 29 stereo speaker pairs is doing a fairly large job. The
speakers alone using your "30 minutes per drop for first timers" are
going to run almost 15 hours (2 normal 8 hour workdays).

Peace...

[Lewis Gardner]

Frank Stutzman wrote:
> Lewis Gardner <lgardner@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote:
>
>>Frank Stutzman wrote:
>>
>>>The number of locations
>>>was probably only about 35.
>
>
>>In other words you did 35 drops in a weekend with a crew of four people.
>>It makes no time difference if one cable or ten cables go to a drop.
>>That is why I consider a "box location" a "drop". The OP's list looked
>>to me like he thought the same way. But even if he didn't with 29
>>speaker and 23 cat5 or cat6 drops he is over 50 drops. Still a full
>>weekend at 20+ hours.
>
>
> Ah. So we've got a differance in definition.
>
> When I did my commercial installations, I was typically paid by the cable
> termination. The term used for this was "a drop".
>
> In a commercial installation it is fairly common to have several hundred
> cables run between wiring closets (a MDF to an IDF, if you recognized
> those terms). Using your definition, these hundred of cables would be a
> single drop. Using mine it would be a hundred drops.
>
> No flame. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen a
> proper definition of the term.


I didn't take it as a flame. I hope you didn't feel that I was
minimizing your work.

I don't think you will find a "proper" definition of most terms used in
HA. At least not like the organization imposed in telcom.

Pay per termination is used in some commercial work. However few people
will pay 100% for each termination for two or more cables terminated in
the same box unless forced by tariff or standing contract.

I would never call "hundreds of cables" a drop.

For estimation purposes I look at how many spools of cable I will have
on a job to determine the maximum number of cables in a drop. In no case
that I can recall have I pulled more than 10 cables at a time. In
general I pull one drop at a time due to friction issues unless the
drops are the same distance from the closet. To do otherwise tends to
mess up the trunk lines.

..

[D.R.]

Now THAT'S!!! Funny ;-)


>
>You've probably been confusing alarm installers with DIYers. :^)
>

[Robert L. Bass]

Heh, heh, heh... :^)

> Now THAT'S!!! Funny ;-)
>
>>You've probably been confusing alarm installers with DIYers. :^)

[Dandelion Acres]

Hey Lewis, if you decide to move to the northwest look me up and I'll give
you a job.

Nobody actually answered this guys question, on costs. I'll give you an idea
here, just a ball-park. Keep in mind I'm not a "do-it-yourselfer", but a
business destined for profit and growth. It's working for us....

A pair of speakers with volume control location in a room (16-4 w/Cat5) RI
only $195 per room. Includes ring if appropriate. Trim separate of course.

Regardless of the content of a drop, and yes we use that same term, we price
it *per cable*. An Ultrahome bundle of 2 RG6 and 2 Cat5 is four cables. $45
each cable includes rough-in and trim.

Head end equipment is separate, and things like Cat6 or a mini-coax feed (5
coax w/2 STP) to a display are more due to raw material costs.

I guess his project with 11 rooms of speakers and the rest will run around
$7000-8000. Add speakers, VC's and/or keypads, terminal equipment and this
may be a $15-20K job. I'll do these all day long if I can find them...

"Lewis Gardner" <lgardner@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote in message
news:423149ec_1@news.iglou.com...
>
> Before I get started let me clarify a term I use.
>
> A "drop" is a location where wire(s) terminate outside the wire closet. To
> me it makes NO difference if there is one wire or ten cables going to a
> box, the time required is about the same so I figure labor by the box
> (drop). It looks like the OP did the same since he has "15 component (3
> RG6) drops" which I count as 15 not 5 or 45 drops. Additionally the OP
> said "29 speaker drops". I don't think he is running mono so 29 (being an
> odd number) would mean 29 stereo pairs.
>
> Any contractor that charges you a flat price per cable for HA work is not
> dealing in reality. The big cost is labor, not materials.
>
>
>>>90 drops X 20 minutes per drop = 30 hours
>>
>>
>> 30 hours / 2 people / 2 days is 7.5 hours per day -- not so bad. I
>> figure more like 30 minutes per drop for first timers. That's 10-1/2
>> hours a day -- still not so bad.
>
> 20 minutes per drop is with two people. Adding an extra person does not
> cut the time in half. The only way to cut the time in half is to have two
> crews (4 people) pulling wire at the same time. This requires quite a bit
> of coordination and is beyond the "You and a helper (perhaps your SO)"
> like you proposed to the OP.
>
> How do you get 10.5 hours? 90 drops X 30 minutes per drop = 45 hours (
> which is more reasonable for DIY). Over two days that is 22.5 hours per
> day. Even divided by 2 (which would be 4 people) that is still 11.25 hours
> per day.
>
> My original (and unchanged) point is that even at the "professional" speed
> of 20 minutes per drop this project would be quite an undertaking for a
> two day weekend.
>
>
>>>1. Locate and mount a box or mud ring (for speakers 3 wire end points).
>>
>>
>> 3 speakers are three drops. No one I know uses mud rings for in-wall or
>> in-ceiling speakers. Pre-wire brackets, if they're being used, go up in
>> 2 minutes flat. Piece of cake.
>
> I use metal backboxes (Speakercraft) for speakers. No big deal in time or
> cost since the finish is faster, easier, the sound is better and the fire
> rating is maintained. My only point was that for speaker wiring you have
> to get the cables to three places which adds about 10 minutes per stereo
> pair.
>
>
>>>2. Drill holes. At this speed spade bits and consumer
>>>drills won't cut it. You need auger or self-feed bits, a
>>>stout drill and heavy duty extension cord.
>>
>>
>> Each to his own I guess. For many years I ran a modestly successful
>> installing dealership. Ever since they became available I used 18-Volt
>> battery powered Milwaukee drills and ordinary jobber's bits -- available
>> at CoastalTool.com for pretty decent prices but also at Home Depot for a
>> few percent more.
>
> 18 volt drills will run a 3/4" NailEater (auger bit) all day long with two
> batteries. You still need AC drill for the trunk line holes through
> joists, top plates, bottom plates and subfloor which can be up to 3" in
> diameter and 3.75" deep. No battery drill or 3/8" consumer drill can
> handle that.
>
>
>>>3. Pull and label cables.
>>
>>
>> Unless the home is exceptionally large, pulling cables is simple and
>> easy. I use a Sharpie brand fine point laundry marker to label both ends
>> of every cable. Labels, tags and such often come off during
>> construction. Sharpie will be there until Jesus comes back.
>
> If you have your planning done each box will have some sort of name.
> Gather the cables going to that box and tape them together with light
> colored electrical tape (white or yellow scotch 33 is the best). Pull the
> cable bundle to the box. Get the enough slack on the wire closet end and
> tape the bundle again, label the bundle and cut. When you get ready to
> finish the wire closet cut the cables out of the bundle one at a time,
> terminate and mark your terminations. Saves LOTS of time on jobs with
> hundreds of cables.
>
> A home that will hold 29 pairs of speakers is likely "exceptionally
> large".
>
>
>>>4. Fasten cable bundles so the won't be damaged by other trades.
>>
>>
>> That's part of pulling and it's extremely quick and easy if you use drive
>> rings.
>
> My point is that it takes time.
>
> Drive rings work fine for alarm wiring and cat3 phone stuff but are not
> appropriate for cat5 (or above) or RG6. In horizontal runs the narrow
> contact point at the bottom will deform the cable over time possibly
> resulting in degraded performance. Also to insert cables in a installed
> drive ring a significant amount of twisting is required. If a installer is
> not careful cables (especially coaxial) can be damaged.
>
> I prefer driving a 1/2" NM staple in line with the cable bundle and
> attaching the bundle with cable ties (2 or 3 on horizontal runs) or velcro
> straps. You don't want the cables to deform over time. I have seen RG6
> degrade after installation to where it would not support a satellite
> signal.
>
>
>>>Not included in the above 30 hours is time to
>>>set up and get out twice since you can't do all
>>>the work in one day...
>>
>>
>> It takes all of ten minutes to exit one's SUV or pickup, grab a drill,
>> hammer bits and drive rings and a few boxes of cable.
>>
>>
>>>Getting all the cable and tools in and out will eat
>>>up at least 1 hour per day...
>>
>>
>> You're starting to sound like a paid installer. It just doesn't take
>> that long to unload cables and the very few tools needed to pull wire.
>
> I am a paid installer that does top notch work and I am quite fast. The
> OPs drop list would result in a minimum of 120 cables. At 90' per run that
> is 10800' of cable. That is at least 11 boxes. Everything takes time and
> time goes by quickly when you are on deadline. I don't think 30 minutes
> for set up and 30 minutes for tear down are unreasonable so 1 hour per day
> is a good estimate.
>
>
>>>So you are looking at two 16 hour days...
>>
>>
>> Maybe someone peing paid on the clock might take that long. If one of my
>> guys took an hour to unload his truck I'd fire him before coffee break.
>
> I never said it was going to take an hour to unload the truck. The TOTAL
> time alloted for set up and tear down is 1 hour per day. A guy has to pee
> sometime and at 20 minutes per drop you don't have time for much besides
> wire work. One hour per day is fairly stingy. With "real" workmen you have
> 30 min for lunch and two 15 min breaks. A homeowner with drywallers on the
> way has a bit more motivation.
>
>
>>>My guess is that few DIYs are able to pull off such a feat...
>>
>>
>> Perhaps that's because you're guessing. I cater to DIYers and I help
>> them plan jobs all the time. It's not as tough as you might think it is.
>
> No I'm not guessing. I have wired a bunch houses and I keep decent
> records. Unless you are Superman or Joe Fumblefingers it is going to take
> you around 20 to 30 minutes per drop to do HA type prewires (new
> construction, 1 to 6 cables per drop).
>
>
>>>I just reviewed a actual time spreadsheet from a job where everything
>>>went well. There were 55 drops which took 18 hours - 19.6 minutes per
>>>drop. This was with a crew of three.
>>
>>
>> Fire your crew. I'll get you some guys who like to work and save you a
>> fortune on wasted labor.
>
> I would like to see a crew that could do the job faster. That job had 130
> cables which worked out to around 20,000 feet of cable. The cost on the
> wire alone was $2428.50. My estimate was was within 1% of the actual cost
> for the prewire. All of this AND part of the basement was a crawlspace due
> to rock.
>
>
>>>In construction with open wood trusses the only drilling is to penetrate
>>>floors. In one of these I used three cable joes (but no helper) and I ran
>>>21 drops in 10 hours which is 28.6 minutes per drop. Not bad...
>>
>>
>> Not bad??? I'd call that terrible.
>
> I would like to see you do better. That job had 70 cables (6,000 feet). If
> you want to say each cable is a drop then that is 9 minutes per.
>
>
>> with cables marked at both ends two people can do the
>> punch down simultaneously once the home is finished.
>
> One guy in the wiring closet and one guy at the wall jacks. The only one
> that has a bunch of cables to sort is the guy in the closet. The guy doing
> the wall jacks hooks the white RG6 to the white jack. the black RG6 to the
> black jack, the grey catX to the gray jack and the white catX to the white
> jack. Not hard.
>
> Labeling each wire with a sharpie is time consuming and can be covered if
> they spray paint which is very common for walls these days. It also only
> works on light colored wires. Whatever, my system works for me and your
> system worked for you when you were installing alarms.
>
>
> A diversity of viewpoints is what makes this forum fun. I don't think we
> are really that different in our time estimations. You say "30 minutes per
> drop for first timers" I say 20 to 30 minutes for normal people. I can't
> imagine that you actually think adding an hour per day for miscellaneous
> tasks is excessive.
>
> I think where we vary is that you are selling something and have minimized
> the effort on what looks like a fairly large job. Anyone installing 29
> stereo speaker pairs is doing a fairly large job. The speakers alone using
> your "30 minutes per drop for first timers" are going to run almost 15
> hours (2 normal 8 hour workdays).
>
> Peace...

[Frank Stutzman]

Dandelion Acres <nospam@cedarcomm.com> wrote:
> Hey Lewis, if you decide to move to the northwest look me up and I'll give
> you a job.

> Nobody actually answered this guys question, on costs. I'll give you an idea
> here, just a ball-park. Keep in mind I'm not a "do-it-yourselfer", but a
> business destined for profit and growth. It's working for us....

> A pair of speakers with volume control location in a room (16-4 w/Cat5) RI
> only $195 per room. Includes ring if appropriate. Trim separate of course.

Wow. What part of the northwest are you in?

If I could those prices in this part of rural Washington I'd quit my
day job in a second.

Frank Stutzman