X10 switch control logic

[J Baber]

I have a 3 way hard wired switch for a whole house fan that I want to
replace with non dimming X10 switches. (I do know and accept the X10
reliability factors)

The existing switch has 3 positions HI SPEED | OFF | LOW SPEED. It is
wired 1 wire to power (high) 1 wire to motor Low, 1 wire to motor Hi.
The motor has 3 wires; Hi speed, Low speed Neutral.

I am thinking I can replace this with 2 separate non dimming X10
switches. The 1st would be a ON | OFF toggle style switch, that would
connect the power (hi) to the common contact of the second switch, a non
dimming 2 way ON | ON toggle style switch. One of the 2 switched
contacts to be connected to the motor Hi, and the other switched contact
to be connected to motor Low.

I would mount both switches side by side with the ON | OFF switch to the
left and the HI | LOW to the right for best natural action. One of my
major complaints with the existing switch is that the center OFF is
easy to miss if you are in a hurry, and strangers will almost always use
the WRONG position for the HI / LOW speed. If I mount the switch upside
down we all seem to pick the WRONG one. Using a separate switch (UP for
HI | DOWN for LOW) makes sense from the way that other switches
generally work.

Eventually I intend to use a computer and utilize the X10 control
features to turn a fan on conditionally when the inside temperature
exceeds the outside temperature and the inside temperature exceeds a
predetermined TARGET-TEMP value. The fan would always turn on to the
LOW speed condition, but then if the outside temperature exceeds a
predetermined USE_MAX_FAN parameter after 30 seconds the second switch
would be set to the HIGH speed position. In all cases the turn off
command would reset the speed to LOW.
The fan manufacturer specifies that the fan be started at low speed, but
the supplied switch doesn't force that, and you can see considerable
arcing in the switch if you start it in the high speed position (easy to
do this).

[BruceR]

Is there some reason you don't want to just use an inductive load rated
X10 switch that will adjust fan speed by dim/bright commands.

From:J Baber
jimbaber1@comcast.net

> I have a 3 way hard wired switch for a whole house fan that I want to
> replace with non dimming X10 switches. (I do know and accept the X10
> reliability factors)
>
> The existing switch has 3 positions HI SPEED | OFF | LOW SPEED. It is
> wired 1 wire to power (high) 1 wire to motor Low, 1 wire to motor Hi.
> The motor has 3 wires; Hi speed, Low speed Neutral.
>
> I am thinking I can replace this with 2 separate non dimming X10
> switches. The 1st would be a ON | OFF toggle style switch, that would
> connect the power (hi) to the common contact of the second switch, a
> non dimming 2 way ON | ON toggle style switch. One of the 2 switched
> contacts to be connected to the motor Hi, and the other switched
> contact to be connected to motor Low.
>
> I would mount both switches side by side with the ON | OFF switch to
> the left and the HI | LOW to the right for best natural action. One
> of my major complaints with the existing switch is that the center
> OFF is easy to miss if you are in a hurry, and strangers will almost
> always use the WRONG position for the HI / LOW speed. If I mount the
> switch upside down we all seem to pick the WRONG one. Using a
> separate switch (UP for HI | DOWN for LOW) makes sense from the way
> that other switches generally work.
>
> Eventually I intend to use a computer and utilize the X10 control
> features to turn a fan on conditionally when the inside temperature
> exceeds the outside temperature and the inside temperature exceeds a
> predetermined TARGET-TEMP value. The fan would always turn on to the
> LOW speed condition, but then if the outside temperature exceeds a
> predetermined USE_MAX_FAN parameter after 30 seconds the second switch
> would be set to the HIGH speed position. In all cases the turn off
> command would reset the speed to LOW.
> The fan manufacturer specifies that the fan be started at low speed,
> but the supplied switch doesn't force that, and you can see
> considerable arcing in the switch if you start it in the high speed
> position (easy to do this).

[Mark Thomas]

BruceR wrote:
> Is there some reason you don't want to just use an inductive
> load rated X10 switch that will adjust fan speed by
> dim/bright commands.

....or the Lightolier X-10 compatible switch designed specifically for
fan control:
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=87

- Mark.

[J Baber]

BruceR wrote:

>Is there some reason you don't want to just use an inductive load rated
>X10 switch that will adjust fan speed by dim/bright commands.
>
>
>
Reply from Jim to Bruce:R
The 1/2 HP motor is built with separate windings for either a high
speed or a low speed. On high speed it is rated at 840 W and I do not
remember how much at low speed but I recall it was in the 3?? W range.
By the way when I checked it with my AC recording Wattmeter mine
registered 805 W at startup declining to 600 W within 4 seconds. If I
found such a X10 switch, I believe that running such a motor on the
typical pulse width control will cause more motor heating than I want.

>From:J Baber
>jimbaber1@comcast.net
>
>
>
>>I have a 3 way hard wired switch for a whole house fan that I want to
>>replace with non dimming X10 switches. (I do know and accept the X10
>>reliability factors)
>>
>>The existing switch has 3 positions HI SPEED | OFF | LOW SPEED. It is
>>wired 1 wire to power (high) 1 wire to motor Low, 1 wire to motor Hi.
>>The motor has 3 wires; Hi speed, Low speed Neutral.
>>
>>I am thinking I can replace this with 2 separate non dimming X10
>>switches. The 1st would be a ON | OFF toggle style switch, that would
>>connect the power (hi) to the common contact of the second switch, a
>>non dimming 2 way ON | ON toggle style switch. One of the 2 switched
>>contacts to be connected to the motor Hi, and the other switched
>>contact to be connected to motor Low.
>>
>>I would mount both switches side by side with the ON | OFF switch to
>>the left and the HI | LOW to the right for best natural action. One
>>of my major complaints with the existing switch is that the center
>>OFF is easy to miss if you are in a hurry, and strangers will almost
>>always use the WRONG position for the HI / LOW speed. If I mount the
>>switch upside down we all seem to pick the WRONG one. Using a
>>separate switch (UP for HI | DOWN for LOW) makes sense from the way
>>that other switches generally work.
>>
>>Eventually I intend to use a computer and utilize the X10 control
>>features to turn a fan on conditionally when the inside temperature
>>exceeds the outside temperature and the inside temperature exceeds a
>>predetermined TARGET-TEMP value. The fan would always turn on to the
>>LOW speed condition, but then if the outside temperature exceeds a
>>predetermined USE_MAX_FAN parameter after 30 seconds the second switch
>>would be set to the HIGH speed position. In all cases the turn off
>>command would reset the speed to LOW.
>>The fan manufacturer specifies that the fan be started at low speed,
>>but the supplied switch doesn't force that, and you can see
>>considerable arcing in the switch if you start it in the high speed
>>position (easy to do this).
>>
>>

[J Baber]

Mark Thomas wrote:

>BruceR wrote:
>
>
>>Is there some reason you don't want to just use an inductive
>>load rated X10 switch that will adjust fan speed by
>>dim/bright commands.
>>
>>
>
>...or the Lightolier X-10 compatible switch designed specifically for
>fan control:
>http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=87
>
>- Mark.
>
>
>
Jim Baber replys:

Thanks Mark, these are ceiling fans, not whole house fans, which are
much larger, and faster. Mine has a 6 bladed 36" dia. fan that turns at
3600 RPM in the high speed mode (noisy, but you get used to it, like
surf). I want it to run in the low speed (quieter) mode unless the high
speed is really needed to pull a lot of air thru the house on a warm
evening after a HOT day. I won't use it if the outside temp over 75 and
the inside is over 75 degrees. In Fresno we had 97 days where the
daytime temp exceeded 95 last year at my house. I know, I have
recorded the hourly readings for the past 3 years, and last year was the
coolest of the three.

If the daytime high temperature has been above 95, the insulation in
the house will have absorbed a lot of that 90+ degree heat and if we
don't pull the air that is inside the house out with the whole house fan
the air conditioner will kick in to cool the house off. I much prefer
to prevent this by using the fan to move the cooler outside air inside
to cool us (and the house's walls). It is much cheaper to run the 300 /
600 W fan than my 2 central air conditioners (total of 5.5 Tons
capacity) even when the fan runs all night and the A/C would only run
1/4 of the same time (but they use about 8500 W for that time they do run).

I want the separate ON | OFF control function to eventually be
logically prevented from turning on if the windows needed for venting
have not been opened. (Otherwise the doggie door opens up all the way,
and it is a 30 inch by 20 inch custom door for our 155 pound spoiled
Akita.) The doggie door does prevent damage to the fan, but is it ever
a poor choice for the venting.

You need to open windows at the extremes of the house to get flow
THRU the house, but a whole house fan pulling air from the interior into
the attic really does work, if the attic is sufficiently vented to the
outdoors

[BruceR]

The house I grew up in had one of those and it was great for cooling
down the house at night. Perhaps your best bet for X10 control would be
to use a couple of Universal modules to operate relays. I did something
similar to control an awning using one to trigger the UP and the other
to trigger the down action.

From:J Baber
jimbaber1@comcast.net

> Mark Thomas wrote:
>
>> BruceR wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Is there some reason you don't want to just use an inductive
>>> load rated X10 switch that will adjust fan speed by
>>> dim/bright commands.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ...or the Lightolier X-10 compatible switch designed specifically for
>> fan control:
>> http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=87
>>
>> - Mark.
>>
>>
>>
> Jim Baber replys:
>
> Thanks Mark, these are ceiling fans, not whole house fans, which
> are much larger, and faster. Mine has a 6 bladed 36" dia. fan that
> turns at 3600 RPM in the high speed mode (noisy, but you get used to
> it, like surf). I want it to run in the low speed (quieter) mode
> unless the high speed is really needed to pull a lot of air thru the
> house on a warm evening after a HOT day. I won't use it if the
> outside temp over 75 and the inside is over 75 degrees. In Fresno we
> had 97 days where the daytime temp exceeded 95 last year at my house.
> I know, I have
> recorded the hourly readings for the past 3 years, and last year was
> the coolest of the three.
>
> If the daytime high temperature has been above 95, the insulation
> in the house will have absorbed a lot of that 90+ degree heat and if
> we don't pull the air that is inside the house out with the whole
> house
> fan the air conditioner will kick in to cool the house off. I much
> prefer to prevent this by using the fan to move the cooler outside air
> inside
> to cool us (and the house's walls). It is much cheaper to run the
> 300 / 600 W fan than my 2 central air conditioners (total of 5.5 Tons
> capacity) even when the fan runs all night and the A/C would only run
> 1/4 of the same time (but they use about 8500 W for that time they do
> run).
> I want the separate ON | OFF control function to eventually be
> logically prevented from turning on if the windows needed for venting
> have not been opened. (Otherwise the doggie door opens up all the
> way, and it is a 30 inch by 20 inch custom door for our 155 pound
> spoiled Akita.) The doggie door does prevent damage to the fan, but
> is it ever a poor choice for the venting.
>
> You need to open windows at the extremes of the house to get flow
> THRU the house, but a whole house fan pulling air from the interior
> into the attic really does work, if the attic is sufficiently vented
> to the outdoors