Multisource, Multizone Audio [Archive]

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Mark

13-02-2005, 01:21 AM

I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
zones (yes, its a big house). They ran wire for distributed audio,
cat5e for network/phone/audiocontrol/other, rg6 for
cable/cameras/projectors, and cat5e to light switches for ALC. As has
been pointed out here many times, when in doubt, run more wire. I think
we estimated that 5 miles of wire was installed. But the walls are
still open, so maybe more!?!? One guy said, "Looks like you're
insulating the house with wire, eh?". All the wire meets in a 5x6
wiring closet where we have 2 large panels and I envision a rack (for
a/v equipment) and space for 2 or 3 computer servers.

My current concern is how the audio will be distributed and controlled.
My installers tell me that the various models of 4-source 6-zone
controllers can be daisy-chained to support this number of zones.
(Because 4 of the zones are outside, I'd like to have 40+ watts RMS).
I'd like to be able to select and control the source as well as volume
in each zone. I suppose the cat5e will facilitate that. But its not
clear to me what these wires would attach to ... and in turn how they
attach to the audio sources, given the large number of zones.

Can anyone here lay out my options for handling this many zones? Of
course, I'd like your recommendations too.

By the way, I plan on installing an HAI OmniProII (though I have no
great interest in PLC or X-10). The installer recommends an OnQ
solution, but the HAI (which manufactures both) seems to be a superset
and not badly priced. I felt the OmniProII provided additional options,
whether I ever use them or not.

I know the world of home automation, etc. can change quickly. Maybe
that's the excuse for no one writing a good, detailed book on the
subject. (But it never stopped folks in the software world. I've got
more obsolete dead trees on my bookshelves than I care to admit). Does
the Holy Grail of HA, aka documentation, actually exist somewhere?

Any comments would be appreciated.

13-02-2005, 04:57 AM

"Mark" <mark@renmarksystems.com> wrote in message
news:1108217431.916218.7040@l41g2000cwc.googlegrou ps.com...

> I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
> zones (yes, its a big house). SNIP

First, do you really need 16 independant zones?? A zone is typically
defined as an area or single room that has the ability to play one source
while a different zone is playing another, or the ability to play by itself
while the other zone is mute. If you have a Master Bathroom adjacent to the
Master Bedroom, do you really need the ability to separately control them,
or can you combine those two into one 'area' zone? If you can combine a
few, then you could cut your costs significantly if you were able to get to
12 zones instead of 16. Another area is your 4 outdoor zones...Are you
really anticipating playing four different sources to the outdoor zones, or
playing one zone and not the other three? If not, then you can combine a
few of these too.

If you do end up combining some, you'll have to be wary of impdence
matching. Each time you add another speaker in parallel to a single output
you are reducing the impedance. Most amps are good for 4 ohms (two sets of
8 ohm speakers in parallel), but if you go below that, you'll need to add an
impedance matching block/switch to bring the impedance back up. Nothing
major, just keep it in mind.

> My current concern is how the audio will be distributed and controlled.
> My installers tell me that the various models of 4-source 6-zone
> controllers can be daisy-chained to support this number of zones.

I would consider the Russound CA6.6 (two of them ganged together for 12
zones).

http://www.russound.com/doccenter/docfiles/Homeowner/Multi-Zone/Product%20Manuals/CAV6.6manual.pdf

> (Because 4 of the zones are outside, I'd like to have 40+ watts RMS).

In addition to the speaker 'out's the Russound has line level outputs that
you can run through an amplifier for those outdoor zones. The normal 20W is
more than sufficient for indoor music. Everyone gets hung up on wattage,
but 20W will play annoyingly loud indoors if so desire.

> I'd like to be able to select and control the source as well as volume
> in each zone. I suppose the cat5e will facilitate that. But its not
> clear to me what these wires would attach to ... and in turn how they
> attach to the audio sources, given the large number of zones.

Look at the manual above. It gives very good pictorials that will answer
your questions. Basically, the Cat-5 will connect your keypads to the
Russound. Your sources will connect to the audio inputs of the Russound.
If you have more than one Russound, you use the pass through of one Russound
and connect the audio out to the audio in of the second Russound. Your
speakers will connect to the Russound also. From the Russound, you will run
IR emitters to your source equipment so that the keypads and remotes can
operate the equipment for changing channels, stop, play, etc.
>
> Can anyone here lay out my options for handling this many zones? Of
> course, I'd like your recommendations too.

Russound CA6.6
>
> By the way, I plan on installing an HAI OmniProII (though I have no
> great interest in PLC or X-10). The installer recommends an OnQ
> solution, but the HAI (which manufactures both) seems to be a superset
> and not badly priced. I felt the OmniProII provided additional options,
> whether I ever use them or not.

OmniPro II is a popular controller, especially since it can handle security
needs in addition to automation.
>
> I know the world of home automation, etc. can change quickly. Maybe
> that's the excuse for no one writing a good, detailed book on the
> subject. (But it never stopped folks in the software world. I've got
> more obsolete dead trees on my bookshelves than I care to admit). Does
> the Holy Grail of HA, aka documentation, actually exist somewhere?

Not really. There are a few publications, but about the time they hit the
newstands, they are out of date. I suggest hanging out here and
www.AVSForums.com (Home Integration and Distribution Forum).
>
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
You're welcome.

Robert

Rex

13-02-2005, 04:57 AM

When in doubt, install TUBING. All wiring becomes obsolete, eventually.
Conduit is much less likely to become obsolete. In your case you might want
to install REALLY BIG CONDUITS, everywhere. Maybe you should make the walls
thicker, to accommodate such bigness.
Enjoy your hotel. Impress your neighbors, and your friends. Your wife
probably won't care. Sounds to me like you are getting carried away. Yeah,
I did something like that 15 years ago. My attic is full of wiring, and the
labelling is fading and falling off. Now I listen to music at my computer,
with the best speaker system I could find.
I hope you appreciate my comments.

"Mark" <mark@renmarksystems.com> wrote in message
news:1108217431.916218.7040@l41g2000cwc.googlegrou ps.com...
> I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
> zones (yes, its a big house). They ran wire for distributed audio,
> cat5e for network/phone/audiocontrol/other, rg6 for
> cable/cameras/projectors, and cat5e to light switches for ALC. As has
> been pointed out here many times, when in doubt, run more wire. I think
> we estimated that 5 miles of wire was installed.

> Any comments would be appreciated.
>

Si Ballenger

13-02-2005, 07:27 AM

On 12 Feb 2005 06:10:31 -0800, "Mark" <mark@renmarksystems.com>
wrote:

>I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
>zones (yes, its a big house). They ran wire for distributed audio,
>cat5e for network/phone/audiocontrol/other, rg6 for
>cable/cameras/projectors, and cat5e to light switches for ALC. As has
>been pointed out here many times, when in doubt, run more wire. I think
>we estimated that 5 miles of wire was installed. But the walls are
>still open, so maybe more!?!? One guy said, "Looks like you're
>insulating the house with wire, eh?". All the wire meets in a 5x6
>wiring closet where we have 2 large panels and I envision a rack (for
>a/v equipment) and space for 2 or 3 computer servers.
>
>My current concern is how the audio will be distributed and controlled.
>My installers tell me that the various models of 4-source 6-zone
>controllers can be daisy-chained to support this number of zones.
>(Because 4 of the zones are outside, I'd like to have 40+ watts RMS).
>I'd like to be able to select and control the source as well as volume
>in each zone. I suppose the cat5e will facilitate that. But its not
>clear to me what these wires would attach to ... and in turn how they
>attach to the audio sources, given the large number of zones.
>
>Can anyone here lay out my options for handling this many zones? Of
>course, I'd like your recommendations too.

Probably good news and bad news. The good news is that you have
done the easy part. The bad news is that if you expect each zone
to be totally independent from the other zones, then you may need
totally independent audio systems for each zone. These could
probably be controlled by a central computer control system if
needed. An example of the issue would be zone 3 wants to listen
to track 12 of CD XXX, and zone 8 wants to listen to track 2 of
CD YYY, all at the same time. Even a multiplexing system doesn't
usually address the independent audio sources you may need.

Robert L Bass

13-02-2005, 07:27 AM

Hi Mark,

You could do the entire thing with a pair of Russound's CAV6.6 systems.
These allow up to six independent zones with up to four "slave" zones (same
source, independent volume) per CAV6.6 controller. Two units can be daisy
chained, giving you 20 rooms of audio.

Zones such as the outdoor areas which require additional power can be fed
through a multi-channel amplifier such as Russound's DPA4.8 (4 zones) or
DPA6.12 (6 zones) units.

Each CAV6.6 series distributes audio and video over conventional cabling to
the six primary rooms. Control and IR signals are sent to the CAV from
keypads in the rooms over CAT5 cable. Audio is distributed to sub-zone
rooms over CAT5 using A-BUS technology. There have been several threads
discussing A-BUS here in the past which may also be of interest to you.

In fairness I should point out that I sell Russound online so I'm not
entirely unbiased, but it's excellent stuff. I've installed tons of
Russound hardware over the years. Other competing manufacturers, such as
Niles Audio (which I don't carry) are also worth considering. They make
some pretty slick multi-room systems too.

As to the HA system, you might want to consider the ELK-M1 Gold controller.
ELK's M1Gold does pretty much the same things HAI does, except ELK can also
read analog inputs. The controller can compare indoor and outdoor temps,
humidity, ground water, etc. to make qualitative decisions about whether to
run the AC, furnace or just fans. It can not only decide when to water the
lawn but how much water to use.

On my new home we'll control the solar collector for the pool based on
temperature differentials rather than a simple threshold test. I have
additional information on these systems and quite a few more on my website
if it's of interest to you.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Mark wrote:
>
> I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
> zones (yes, its a big house). They ran wire for distributed audio,
> cat5e for network/phone/audiocontrol/other, rg6 for
> cable/cameras/projectors, and cat5e to light switches for ALC. As has
> been pointed out here many times, when in doubt, run more wire. I think
> we estimated that 5 miles of wire was installed. But the walls are
> still open, so maybe more!?!? One guy said, "Looks like you're
> insulating the house with wire, eh?". All the wire meets in a 5x6
> wiring closet where we have 2 large panels and I envision a rack (for
> a/v equipment) and space for 2 or 3 computer servers.
>
> My current concern is how the audio will be distributed and controlled.
> My installers tell me that the various models of 4-source 6-zone
> controllers can be daisy-chained to support this number of zones.
> (Because 4 of the zones are outside, I'd like to have 40+ watts RMS).
> I'd like to be able to select and control the source as well as volume
> in each zone. I suppose the cat5e will facilitate that. But its not
> clear to me what these wires would attach to ... and in turn how they
> attach to the audio sources, given the large number of zones.
>
> Can anyone here lay out my options for handling this many zones? Of
> course, I'd like your recommendations too.
>
> By the way, I plan on installing an HAI OmniProII (though I have no
> great interest in PLC or X-10). The installer recommends an OnQ
> solution, but the HAI (which manufactures both) seems to be a superset
> and not badly priced. I felt the OmniProII provided additional options,
> whether I ever use them or not.
>
> I know the world of home automation, etc. can change quickly. Maybe
> that's the excuse for no one writing a good, detailed book on the
> subject. (But it never stopped folks in the software world. I've got
> more obsolete dead trees on my bookshelves than I care to admit). Does
> the Holy Grail of HA, aka documentation, actually exist somewhere?
>
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>

harper

15-02-2005, 04:23 AM

Mark wrote:
> I'm building a new home and have had some folks do the prewire for 16
> zones (yes, its a big house).
>
> By the way, I plan on installing an HAI OmniProII (though I have no
> great interest in PLC or X-10).

I have 18 zones in my place and am using the Channel Plus MDS6 system.
Each unit has six sources and six zones and you can gang three of them
together for a six source, eighteen zone system. The only downside to
the system is that it only takes input from keypads; it has no control
input, such as an RS-232, for automated control. However, I'm working
on a unit that tricks the MDS6 into thinking it's getting input from one
or more of the 18 keypads when, in reality, it is being controlled
through the OmniPro through my interface. I've had a preliminary
version of this working for nearly a year now while I work on the final
version, so external control is possible.

Also, I agree about PLC. I use the hardwire ALC lighting control with
the HAI unit and have been very happy with it. Response is fast and
reliable.

Dave

wkearney99

16-02-2005, 02:49 AM

> Probably good news and bad news. The good news is that you have
> done the easy part. The bad news is that if you expect each zone
> to be totally independent from the other zones, then you may need
> totally independent audio systems for each zone. These could
> probably be controlled by a central computer control system if
> needed. An example of the issue would be zone 3 wants to listen
> to track 12 of CD XXX, and zone 8 wants to listen to track 2 of
> CD YYY, all at the same time. Even a multiplexing system doesn't
> usually address the independent audio sources you may need.

Not true. Most multizone systems do just that. What they *don't* always
offer is the ability of in-room fine tuning of the sources. You can select
the source and stop/start/fwd/rwd it. But only higher-end systems will
allow selection of tracks/playlists from the keypads. Ask yourself if you
can't make due with making playlist changes from a desktop or tablet PC or
even Pocket PDA and leave the wall controls to simple stop/start and volume
control. It's a LOT more expensive to 'do it all' on the wall plates
themselves.

wkearney99

16-02-2005, 02:49 AM

> The only downside to
> the system is that it only takes input from keypads; it has no control
> input, such as an RS-232, for automated control. However, I'm working
> on a unit that tricks the MDS6 into thinking it's getting input from one
> or more of the 18 keypads when, in reality, it is being controlled
> through the OmniPro through my interface.

How controllable are the other zones from your interface? Can you affect
both source AND volume control of the other zones? Or just source?

It would be very convenient to have direct PC control of not only source
selection but also keypad volume control. Most systems don't seem to have a
way to change the keypad output volume from anywhere other than the keypad
itself (or it's IR input).

-Bill Kearney

wkearney99

16-02-2005, 02:49 AM

> First, do you really need 16 independant zones?? A zone is typically
> defined as an area or single room that has the ability to play one source
> while a different zone is playing another, or the ability to play by
itself
> while the other zone is mute.

A very good idea. Think seriously about how much need you have for
different sources being played simultaneously in different zones. A
bathroom adjacent to the master bedroom might not need to have a separate
source but would certainly need a separate volume contol. Likewise an
outside deck might also share the same source as the nearby entrance room
(kitchen, dining room, etc).

Bear in mind that some systems can have more than one keypad connected to a
given output zone. Russound's a-bus for example as well as some Niles
setups. In many cases the keypads have their own amplifiers so you won't
have impedance matching issues. Were you to drive more than one set of
speakers from any one amplifier you'd certainly have to consider impedance
matching, this is true regardless of what system you use.

So map what areas will truly need to have different source selectability and
then recount the zones. Most systems have ways to daisy-chain more than one
controller to support different zones. Sometimes just by passing the audio
input from each zone over to other controllers. It's only the VERY
expensive systems than allow complete multiplexing.

-Bill Kearney

harper

16-02-2005, 05:30 AM

wkearney99 wrote:
>>The only downside to
>>the system is that it only takes input from keypads; it has no control
>>input, such as an RS-232, for automated control. However, I'm working
>>on a unit that tricks the MDS6 into thinking it's getting input from one
>>or more of the 18 keypads when, in reality, it is being controlled
>>through the OmniPro through my interface.
>
>
> How controllable are the other zones from your interface? Can you affect
> both source AND volume control of the other zones? Or just source?

The first version was pretty simple and was mostly a proof-of-concept.
The one I'm working on now does just about everything. It consists of a
master controller that handles a lot of the higher level functions
(periodic schedules, up to two user interfaces such as PC and HAI, etc.)
and up to three slave controllers, one for each amp, which handle up to
six zones each. The slaves are physically connected via Cat-5 cables
and look like they are in series with each zone control cable. Thus,
there are 6 RJ-45 connectors with cables running to each of the keypads,
and 6 more RJ-45 connectors that connect with a short Cat-5 cable to the
back of the MDS6. One more RJ-45 connector on the slave is an RS-422
link back to the master controller. Within the slave, the link between
the keypad and the zone control input on the back of the MDS6 is just a
pass-through. The slave monitors the three LED lines and the single IR
signal line, so it tracks any commands that have been sent from the
keypad to the MDS6. It can also inject any of these commands onto the
IR signal line, just like a second keypad connected via a Y connector.
So to answer your question above, the controller can send any command to
any zone so you can control sources, volume and on/off. Further, the
MDS6 protocol has a lot of unused IR codes. I have used some of them to
implement additional commands. Just like you can train a learning
remote from the keypad to control a zone from a handheld remote, you can
use the IR emitter on the master control to train additional commands.
This gives the ability to have, for example, a sleep timer similar to
the way a sleep timer operates with a TV. Or, the ability to control
multiple zones from a single location (via the remote and keypad).
Additional features include:

1) Program scheduling - with the GUI running on the PC, you can enter
programming schedules that are downloaded to the controller and run
automatically. For example, set the bedroom zone to come on in the
morning and wake up to music rather than an alarm clock.

2) Macro capability - Define a sequence of events (keypad operations)
that are to be executed as a unit, such as set the volume to zero,
switch to the desired source, turn the zone on and ramp the volume up to
the desired level.

3) Flexible volume ramp rates - volume can slew up and down as fast as
the MDS6 will allow or can be slowed down to roughly a minute from full
off to full on.

4) Source scaling - the line level on sources is not always equal which
means that when switching from one source to another the volume level in
the zone will change. There is a value for each source that can be set
which will allow the controller to automatically adjust the volume to
compensate for these variations.

5) Zone scaling - the same keypad setting will give different audio
levels depending on whether the speakers are in a large room or a small
room. The controller works with the concept of a virtual volume,
allowing you to set a scale factor for each zone. The controller then
automatically adjusts the requested volume level for that zone. Thus,
if a macro sets multiple zones to the same volume, you can go from zone
to zone and the music sounds at the same level.

Dave

Mark

16-02-2005, 06:17 AM

Yes, well thanks for all the feedback. I might be able to join 2 or 3
of the separate audio zones, reducing the number a bit. If pressed, I
might get it down to 12. But I was concerned about how to implement the
joining of these areas. Can the areas be joined at the wiring closet?
And can we then chose to change the joined areas in the future. In this
new house its not clear what our usage patterns will be. (And with wife
in Kuwait and a 2 yr old, I'd rather not predetermine anything that I
dont' have to). I've heard folks mentioning impedence matching volume
controls. I suppose this is supposed to present the same load to the
amp. But how is volume or sound quality affected?

For those questioning the need for multi-source, I felt that if I have
4 people in the house (sometimes more / sometimes less). Each might
like to choose their own source. Granted it's not perfect, everyone
cannot play their favorite CD on a particular carousel at once. But I
think this can be solved with peaceful negotiations.

Mark

16-02-2005, 06:17 AM

Mark

16-02-2005, 07:30 AM

Mark Thomas

17-02-2005, 09:52 AM

> Yes, well thanks for all the feedback. I might be able to join 2 or 3

> of the separate audio zones, reducing the number a bit. If pressed, I

> might get it down to 12 [...] I've heard folks mentioning impedence
> matching volume controls.

Sounds like you're thinking one zone per pair of speakers? That would
be a big mistake. You'll end up running around fiddling with three
keypads at a time instead of one. I've seen it happen.

Yes, look into impedance matching volume controls. Yes, it affects the
power but not the sound quality. You'll just use fewer, larger amps
instead of more, smaller amps.

- Mark.

Mark

18-02-2005, 04:01 AM

If I want to join 2 rooms on the same zone, can I make use of the
homerun wiring that I have in place? I really don't want to daisy-chain
anything. I'd like to keep the runs simple and deal with everything in
the wiring closet. Though I realize that there is a whole lot of wire
coming in there.

18-02-2005, 05:52 AM

"Mark" <mark@renmarksystems.com> wrote in message
news:1108659174.476319.298760@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> If I want to join 2 rooms on the same zone, can I make use of the
> homerun wiring that I have in place? I really don't want to daisy-chain
> anything. I'd like to keep the runs simple and deal with everything in
> the wiring closet. Though I realize that there is a whole lot of wire
> coming in there.
>

Yep, if there are only two sets of speakers and your amp can handle 4 ohms,
just terminate them both on the connection provided. If you have more than
2 sets, use an intermediate impedance matching terminaton block from Niles
or others.

Robert

wkearney99

21-02-2005, 05:25 AM

> Sounds like you're thinking one zone per pair of speakers? That would
> be a big mistake. You'll end up running around fiddling with three
> keypads at a time instead of one. I've seen it happen.

If you can control other output zones from other keypads you can avoid some
of these problems. But not all systems support it. As in, it's very handy
to be able to mute or otherwise control zone A from zone B. It's sometimes
possible to 'sort of' accomplish this by simply stopping or pausing the
source. But also consider that when sharing sources across multiple zones
you may run into conflicting control situation. Someone in zone A wants to
fast-forward or skip over a track while person in zone B is listening to it
and DOESN'T want it skipped. The low-end systems don't allow blocking
control over sources. Most 'real world' situations won't require this and
the expensive of having it might be a waste.

It's a tough call but you really do need to stop and balance the flexibility
against the costs and long-term usage patterns. While it's certainly
possible to "have it all" it may come at an expense that's just clearly a
huge waste of money.

-Bill Kearney

wkearney99

21-02-2005, 05:25 AM

> For those questioning the need for multi-source, I felt that if I have
> 4 people in the house (sometimes more / sometimes less). Each might
> like to choose their own source. Granted it's not perfect, everyone
> cannot play their favorite CD on a particular carousel at once. But I
> think this can be solved with peaceful negotiations.

So use mp3 (or other format) sources instead of or in addition to CDs.
Software like J.River's Media Center gives some options on having a single
PC act as a multi-zone set of sources.

myren, lord

21-02-2005, 08:35 AM