OEM chips for X-10 available?

[Eduardo Gimeno]

Hello.

I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
several years.

I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.

Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
for this.

Many thanks in advance.

Eduardo Gimeno.
Spain

[Dave Houston]

I don't think you will find an "off-the-shelf" solution. There is an
application note from Microchip (AN236) and this...

http://www.cix.co.uk/~pplunkett/x10.htm

that should help.

The PLC protocol is described at...

http://www.x10.com/support/technology1.htm

And the extended protocol is described at...

http://software.x10.com/pub/manuals/xtc798.doc


edugimeno@hotmail.com (Eduardo Gimeno) wrote:

>Hello.
>
>I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
>several years.
>
>I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
>the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
>own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
>experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
>the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>
>Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
>for this.
>
>Many thanks in advance.
>
>Eduardo Gimeno.
>Spain

[mike]

Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
> several years.
>
> I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
> the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
> own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
> experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
> the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>
> Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
> for this.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Eduardo Gimeno.
> Spain

PicBasic Pro has macro functions to send/receive X10 commands with a
PIC. The X10 chip does the decoding but
you're gonna need an oscillator and line isolation components.
Unless you need a LOT of 'em, it's hard to imagine building one cheaper
than you can buy a module. If you're using a computer for the transmit
end, a firecracker module is the easiest way to go.
There's a ton of info on the web. Google is your friend.
mike


--
Return address is VALID.
Wanted, PCMCIA SCSI Card for HP m820 CDRW.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
http://nm7u.tripod.com/homepage/te.html
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

[Eduardo Gimeno]

Well, let's take another view.

I started talking about X-10 because it seems popular, and it made me
think I would find lots of info about it. But let's assume I have no
preference.

I only need to send/receive commands over the power line (in my case
es 220V 50Hz, Spain), and I need it with the simplest solution, in
terms of price and circuit simplicity.

I would like to know there is some IC which I can feed with the power
line signal (after some treatment), connect 8 dip switches to 8 pins
to fill the code, and receive a digital signal 0/1 on some other pin
(for a receiver, reverse for a transceiver).

Any other protocol available for this?

By the way, what is a firecracker???

Regards.,
Eduardo Gimeno


mike <spamme0@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<420931DF.10601@netscape.net>...
> Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
> > Hello.
> >
> > I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
> > several years.
> >
> > I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
> > the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
> > own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
> > experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
> > the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
> > for this.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance.
> >
> > Eduardo Gimeno.
> > Spain
>
> PicBasic Pro has macro functions to send/receive X10 commands with a
> PIC. The X10 chip does the decoding but
> you're gonna need an oscillator and line isolation components.
> Unless you need a LOT of 'em, it's hard to imagine building one cheaper
> than you can buy a module. If you're using a computer for the transmit
> end, a firecracker module is the easiest way to go.
> There's a ton of info on the web. Google is your friend.
> mike

[Joerg]

Hello Eduardo,

>I only need to send/receive commands over the power line (in my case
>es 220V 50Hz, Spain), and I need it with the simplest solution, in
>terms of price and circuit simplicity.
>
>

It depends on how reliable it has to be. Personally I would not control
anything critical with X10. Other than that it works for us.

>Any other protocol available for this?
>
>

Several, such as Lonworks. But then it gets expensive.

>By the way, what is a firecracker???
>
>

A device that plugs into your PC. It sends X10 RF commands to the
wireless transceiver instead of using a powerline modem like we do.

Whatever you do, make sure it is geared towards 50Hz. The X10 modules we
are using in the US are set for 60Hz. For a reasonable signal to noise
ratio you need to have the 120kHz bursts of X10 happen at the zero
crossing. Or at least near those.

Saludos, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[mike]

Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
> Well, let's take another view.
>
> I started talking about X-10 because it seems popular, and it made me
> think I would find lots of info about it. But let's assume I have no
> preference.
>
> I only need to send/receive commands over the power line (in my case
> es 220V 50Hz, Spain), and I need it with the simplest solution, in
> terms of price and circuit simplicity.

If you're building a zillion, that may be the right question to ask.
If you're building one, you're probably better off buying a solution.
Messing with the power line when you don't know what you're doing is
an invitation for a fire truck.

>
> I would like to know there is some IC which I can feed with the power
> line signal (after some treatment),

And that "treatment" is the problem. Safety issues, reliability issues
for hardware and data.

You can buy devices that can connect your modem over the power line.
My experience was that the performance was horrible...when they worked
at all.


connect 8 dip switches to 8 pins
> to fill the code, and receive a digital signal 0/1 on some other pin
> (for a receiver, reverse for a transceiver).
>
> Any other protocol available for this?
>
> By the way, what is a firecracker???

google firecracker x10, you can't miss it.
Sad that they're now $40. They used to give them away.

>
> Regards.,
> Eduardo Gimeno
>
>
> mike <spamme0@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<420931DF.10601@netscape.net>...
>
>>Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
>>
>>>Hello.
>>>
>>>I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
>>>several years.
>>>
>>>I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
>>>the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
>>>own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
>>>experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
>>>the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>>>
>>>Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
>>>for this.
>>>
>>>Many thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>Eduardo Gimeno.
>>>Spain
>>
>>PicBasic Pro has macro functions to send/receive X10 commands with a
>>PIC. The X10 chip does the decoding but
>>you're gonna need an oscillator and line isolation components.
>>Unless you need a LOT of 'em, it's hard to imagine building one cheaper
>>than you can buy a module. If you're using a computer for the transmit
>>end, a firecracker module is the easiest way to go.
>>There's a ton of info on the web. Google is your friend.
>>mike
>



--
Return address is VALID.
Wanted, PCMCIA SCSI Card for HP m820 CDRW.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
http://nm7u.tripod.com/homepage/te.html
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <yhtOd.3533$ZZ.3385@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> writes:
>
> Whatever you do, make sure it is geared towards 50Hz. The X10 modules we
> are using in the US are set for 60Hz. For a reasonable signal to noise
> ratio you need to have the 120kHz bursts of X10 happen at the zero
> crossing. Or at least near those.

I've converted a few of the MC460 mini controllers to work from
240V just by changing the dropping and coupling capacitors (and
mains lead), and they work fine on 50Hz without any other mods.

--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

[Joerg]

Hello Andrew,

>I've converted a few of the MC460 mini controllers to work from
>240V just by changing the dropping and coupling capacitors (and
>mains lead), and they work fine on 50Hz without any other mods.
>
>

It's been too long ago that I looked at the protocol. But I remember it
detected the zero crossing and placed the burst there, plus on
subsequently calculated three-phase crossings. So while it may work on
single phase it might not be that reliable when another module runs off
another phase, even when there is a bridge.

Thing is, in the US homes don't generally have three-phase power.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:17:25 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

>Hello Andrew,
>
>>I've converted a few of the MC460 mini controllers to work from
>>240V just by changing the dropping and coupling capacitors (and
>>mains lead), and they work fine on 50Hz without any other mods.
>>
>>
>
>It's been too long ago that I looked at the protocol. But I remember it
>detected the zero crossing and placed the burst there, plus on
>subsequently calculated three-phase crossings. So while it may work on
>single phase it might not be that reliable when another module runs off
>another phase, even when there is a bridge.
>
>Thing is, in the US homes don't generally have three-phase power.
>
>Regards, Joerg
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com

69th Place between Oak and Thomas in old-town Scottsdale, AZ, has
three-phase power. Makes for very efficient A/C. I lived there from
1964 thru 1969.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Joerg]

Hello Jim,

>69th Place between Oak and Thomas in old-town Scottsdale, AZ, has
>three-phase power. Makes for very efficient A/C. I lived there from
>1964 thru 1969.
>
>

Lucky you. We live in a house with 200 amp two-phase. Out here they are
all two-phase. When I turn on a big analyzer some of the lights dim and
others brighten for a split second. Sometimes I have to ask my wife not
to turn on the vacuum cleaner just yet, or plug it in somewhere else.

We had three phases in our house in Germany. 380V/63A, plus another for
the heat pump. Boy, did I get spoiled by that. Just imagine, 230V and
16-25 amps per circuit (and 7 cents per kilowatthour...). Now I have to
account for all the printers, copiers and so on to make sure I don't
exceed about 2000 watts per circuit. Else I'll be scurrying for the
flashlight after clicking the print button.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[Jack Ak]

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:j4wOd.3569$ZZ.232@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net. ..
> Hello Jim,
>
> >69th Place between Oak and Thomas in old-town Scottsdale, AZ, has
> >three-phase power. Makes for very efficient A/C. I lived there from
> >1964 thru 1969.
> >
> >
>
> Lucky you. We live in a house with 200 amp two-phase. Out here they are
> all two-phase. When I turn on a big analyzer some of the lights dim and
> others brighten for a split second. Sometimes I have to ask my wife not
> to turn on the vacuum cleaner just yet, or plug it in somewhere else.
>

Are you sure that house doesn't have "split phase"? Split phase is single phase
240 volt service split into two 120v circuits. Look at the label in your power meter.
The 240 volts is available for clothes dryers and ovens or burner top ranges.

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jack Ak <akjack@excite.com> wrote
(in <PUwOd.2648$lz5.538@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net>) about 'OEM chips
for X-10 available?', on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:

>Are you sure that house doesn't have "split phase"? Split phase is
>single phase 240 volt service split into two 120v circuits. Look at the
>label in your power meter. The 240 volts is available for clothes dryers
>and ovens or burner top ranges.

The arguments over whether 120-0-120 is 'two phase' or 'split phase' is
interminable and futile. It's both, depending on how you define it. I
think we can rule out 'neither', but I'm not 100% sure.(;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

[Joerg]

Hello Jack,

>Are you sure that house doesn't have "split phase"? Split phase is single phase
>240 volt service split into two 120v circuits. Look at the label in your power meter.
>The 240 volts is available for clothes dryers and ovens or burner top ranges.
>
>

Yes, sorry for not being specific, it is split phase. The utility guys
still called it two-phase. We do have 240V for large appliances.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[Joerg]

Hello John,

>The arguments over whether 120-0-120 is 'two phase' or 'split phase' is
>interminable and futile. It's both, depending on how you define it. I
>think we can rule out 'neither', but I'm not 100% sure.(;-)
>
>

True. But Jack has a point. We do have three phase at the 10KV level.
The individual transformers are hooked up to two wires each, in a round
robin fashion along the HV line to even out the load.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[Jerry Avins]

John Woodgate wrote:

> I read in sci.electronics.design that Jack Ak <akjack@excite.com> wrote
> (in <PUwOd.2648$lz5.538@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net>) about 'OEM chips
> for X-10 available?', on Wed, 9 Feb 2005:
>
>
>>Are you sure that house doesn't have "split phase"? Split phase is
>>single phase 240 volt service split into two 120v circuits. Look at the
>>label in your power meter. The 240 volts is available for clothes dryers
>>and ovens or burner top ranges.
>
>
> The arguments over whether 120-0-120 is 'two phase' or 'split phase' is
> interminable and futile. It's both, depending on how you define it. I
> think we can rule out 'neither', but I'm not 100% sure.(;-)

True 2-phase power is rare nowadays, When it's supplied at all, it's
supplied as two 220V split-phase circuits in quadrature. There are still
some 20phase motors around, but they are run from Scott T transformers.
In New York City, the power company must supply three-phase power on
request. When my cousins built adjacent houses in Staten Island and
insisted on 3-phase power, it was provided from a Scott T that tied into
a nearby two-phase feeder. Later, that feed was changed over to
three-phase ans the transformer bank eliminated.

For systems with line-to-neutral voltages of 120, split phase is 240
line-to-line, 2 phase is 170, and 2 drops from three phases on the pole
-- a common residential service in three-phase areas -- is 208. (208
volt single-phase home appliances are available.)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote
(in <JJidnR0FVvPYcJffRVn-qA@rcn.net>) about 'OEM chips for X-10
available?', on Thu, 10 Feb 2005:

>True 2-phase power is rare nowadays,

'2 phase' in itself doesn't demand that the interphase angle is 90
degrees. I SAID that argument was pointless.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

[Jerry Avins]

John Woodgate wrote:

> I read in sci.electronics.design that Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote
> (in <JJidnR0FVvPYcJffRVn-qA@rcn.net>) about 'OEM chips for X-10
> available?', on Thu, 10 Feb 2005:
>
>
>>True 2-phase power is rare nowadays,
>
>
> '2 phase' in itself doesn't demand that the interphase angle is 90
> degrees. I SAID that argument was pointless.

Would you accept a six-phase rectifier bank that had all phases in the
same quadrant? The language problem arises because there are two uses of
"two phase", both legitimate.

Whenever two separate wires, not in phase, carry power, the system has
two phases and is loosely called 2-phase. (The common phase differences
are 180. 120, and 90 degrees. If 135 degrees were supplied, that would
also be two phases.)

The technical use implies 90 degrees. See what a 2-phase motor needs for
power. Look up the connections and turns ratios needed for a transformer
bank that converts between 2-phase and 3-phase (Scott T) and see what
angles are involved.

Both the loose and the technical usages have their places. Arguing about
which is "right" is not so much pointless as beside the point.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote
(in <Nd-dnZKbhJWM65bfRVn-tg@rcn.net>) about 'OEM chips for X-10
available?', on Thu, 10 Feb 2005:

>Both the loose and the technical usages have their places. Arguing about
>which is "right" is not so much pointless as beside the point.

What's the difference? (;-)

But I agree.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

[John Fields]

On 8 Feb 2005 12:17:20 -0800, edugimeno@hotmail.com (Eduardo Gimeno)
wrote:

>Hello.
>
>I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
>several years.
>
>I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
>the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
>own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
>experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
>the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>
>Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
>for this.

---
http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_tw523.htm

http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_pl513.htm

--
John Fields

[Gene S. Berkowitz]

In article <191432c8.0502081217.2edc9bb4@posting.google.com>,
edugimeno@hotmail.com says...
> Hello.
>
> I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
> several years.
>
> I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
> the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
> own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
> experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
> the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>
> Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
> for this.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Eduardo Gimeno.
> Spain
>

You want a Micromint PLIX chip.
http://www.micromint.com/products/chips.htm

Power Line Interface for X-10 (PLIX)

PLIX Chip and TW523
Parallel PLIX is an 18-pin CMOS chip which provides an intelligent
communication interface between a computer and X-10 AC power-line
control modules. PLIX removes the burden of complex X-10 programming
protocol from the designer by providing a simple parallel interface. It
takes care of the complex zero-crossing timing for sending and receiving
X-10 commands so you don't have to. An otherwise simple embedded
controller can now also feature X-10 power-line control by simply adding
a PLIX chip to the design. PLIX are available in both a Parallel and
Serial version.

SERIAL PLIX is designed to interface with the Serial port of any
embedded controller or computer. Using simple ASCII commands, the user
now has a simple way to communicate with the X-10 powerline adapter
module (TW523) to control electronic devices over the existing
powerlines. With a little imagination and software support from the
user, Serial PLIX also has the capability to transmit and receive data
segments via the powerlines. The user can select the baud rate and other
parameters to obtain the desired communications protocol.

$19 qty 1.

--Gene

[Eduardo Gimeno]

Let's retake the subject, because it resulted in a discussion about
pahses and so on...:-)

The micromint PLIX chip seemed perfect for the task until I found out
I also needed another module (TW523) whose size is huge (apart from
the cost).

Once again, I don't want to shut the doors just to X-10. I need an
easy to implement and unexpensive protocol to communicate over the
PLC. Even I can lay a data cable for this matter, because I have a
spare electrical tube between each pair of boxes I asked just for this
purpose. When I heard about X-10 I thought I wouldn't need to use the
spare tube, but now when I see the complexity, I do not discard using
it.

Someone mentioned Lonworks. Does it make my problem easy to solve?

Another commands protocol for remote switching over the PLC, or over a
dedicated data line which can be implemented mostly on one chip and
unexpensively?

Thanks!
Eduardo.






> In article <191432c8.0502081217.2edc9bb4@posting.google.com>,
> edugimeno@hotmail.com says...
> > Hello.
> >
> > I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
> > several years.
> >
> > I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
> > the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
> > own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
> > experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
> > the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
> > for this.
> >
> > Many thanks in advance.
> >
> > Eduardo Gimeno.
> > Spain
> >
>
> You want a Micromint PLIX chip.
> http://www.micromint.com/products/chips.htm
>
> Power Line Interface for X-10 (PLIX)
>
> PLIX Chip and TW523
> Parallel PLIX is an 18-pin CMOS chip which provides an intelligent
> communication interface between a computer and X-10 AC power-line
> control modules. PLIX removes the burden of complex X-10 programming
> protocol from the designer by providing a simple parallel interface. It
> takes care of the complex zero-crossing timing for sending and receiving
> X-10 commands so you don't have to. An otherwise simple embedded
> controller can now also feature X-10 power-line control by simply adding
> a PLIX chip to the design. PLIX are available in both a Parallel and
> Serial version.
>
> SERIAL PLIX is designed to interface with the Serial port of any
> embedded controller or computer. Using simple ASCII commands, the user
> now has a simple way to communicate with the X-10 powerline adapter
> module (TW523) to control electronic devices over the existing
> powerlines. With a little imagination and software support from the
> user, Serial PLIX also has the capability to transmit and receive data
> segments via the powerlines. The user can select the baud rate and other
> parameters to obtain the desired communications protocol.
>
> $19 qty 1.
>
> --Gene

[mike]

Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
> Let's retake the subject, because it resulted in a discussion about
> pahses and so on...:-)
>
> The micromint PLIX chip seemed perfect for the task until I found out
> I also needed another module (TW523) whose size is huge (apart from
> the cost).
>
> Once again, I don't want to shut the doors just to X-10. I need an
> easy to implement and unexpensive protocol to communicate over the
> PLC. Even I can lay a data cable for this matter, because I have a
> spare electrical tube between each pair of boxes I asked just for this
> purpose. When I heard about X-10 I thought I wouldn't need to use the
> spare tube, but now when I see the complexity, I do not discard using
> it.
>
> Someone mentioned Lonworks. Does it make my problem easy to solve?
>
> Another commands protocol for remote switching over the PLC, or over a
> dedicated data line which can be implemented mostly on one chip and
> unexpensively?
>
> Thanks!
> Eduardo.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>In article <191432c8.0502081217.2edc9bb4@posting.google.com>,
>>edugimeno@hotmail.com says...
>>
>>>Hello.
>>>
>>>I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
>>>several years.
>>>
>>>I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
>>>the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
>>>own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
>>>experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
>>>the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>>>
>>>Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
>>>for this.
>>>
>>>Many thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>Eduardo Gimeno.
>>>Spain
>>>
>>
>>You want a Micromint PLIX chip.
>>http://www.micromint.com/products/chips.htm
>>
>>Power Line Interface for X-10 (PLIX)
>>
>>PLIX Chip and TW523
>>Parallel PLIX is an 18-pin CMOS chip which provides an intelligent
>>communication interface between a computer and X-10 AC power-line
>>control modules. PLIX removes the burden of complex X-10 programming
>>protocol from the designer by providing a simple parallel interface. It
>>takes care of the complex zero-crossing timing for sending and receiving
>>X-10 commands so you don't have to. An otherwise simple embedded
>>controller can now also feature X-10 power-line control by simply adding
>>a PLIX chip to the design. PLIX are available in both a Parallel and
>>Serial version.
>>
>>SERIAL PLIX is designed to interface with the Serial port of any
>>embedded controller or computer. Using simple ASCII commands, the user
>>now has a simple way to communicate with the X-10 powerline adapter
>>module (TW523) to control electronic devices over the existing
>>powerlines. With a little imagination and software support from the
>>user, Serial PLIX also has the capability to transmit and receive data
>>segments via the powerlines. The user can select the baud rate and other
>>parameters to obtain the desired communications protocol.
>>
>>$19 qty 1.
>>
>>--Gene
>
Well, if you've got a wire...
PIC16F87Xa. Builtin serial port, whether you need level translator
depends on length and noise. Onechip, lots of i/o.
Probably can find a cheaper more current part with enough capability.
mike
--
Return address is VALID but some sites block emails
with links. Delete this sig when replying.
..
Wanted, PCMCIA SCSI Card for HP m820 CDRW.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
MAKE THE OBVIOUS CHANGES TO THE LINK
http://www.geoc<removethis>ities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

[Brian]

Eduardo Gimeno wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I'm new on X10 and home automation, but have been on electronics for
> several years.
>
> I'm looking for some OEM module or "all-in-one" chip containing all
> the circuitry for signal_processing->mo/dem->decoder for building my
> own X-10 appliances. I can use several microcontrollers I have
> experience on, and I just need some kind of asic IC or so to make all
> the stuff regarding the X-10 protocol and interface with power line.
>
> Any help would be appreciated, because I have not found anything yet
> for this.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Eduardo Gimeno.
> Spain

I don't know about an "all-in-one" chip. It would have to handle 120V
or 220V power input to synchronize with the zero crossing. The PL513,
TW523, LM465 and CM17A units that X-10 sells are fairly cheap. But
you'll need a TW723 (or is it TW7223?) for 220V, 50Hz systems, if
that's what Spain uses.

http://www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/TOC_Related_Info/0411/Murtha.pdf

There's an article in the current Circuit Cellar about using a CM17A
with an RS232 UART.

- Brian

http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com
http://www.zworld.com
http://www.imaginetools.com

[John Fields]

On 14 Feb 2005 02:42:11 -0800, edugimeno@hotmail.com (Eduardo Gimeno)
wrote:

>Let's retake the subject, because it resulted in a discussion about
>pahses and so on...:-)
>
>The micromint PLIX chip seemed perfect for the task until I found out
>I also needed another module (TW523) whose size is huge (apart from
>the cost).
>
>Once again, I don't want to shut the doors just to X-10. I need an
>easy to implement and unexpensive protocol to communicate over the
>PLC. Even I can lay a data cable for this matter, because I have a
>spare electrical tube between each pair of boxes I asked just for this
>purpose. When I heard about X-10 I thought I wouldn't need to use the
>spare tube, but now when I see the complexity, I do not discard using
>it.
>
>Someone mentioned Lonworks. Does it make my problem easy to solve?
>
>Another commands protocol for remote switching over the PLC, or over a
>dedicated data line which can be implemented mostly on one chip and
>unexpensively?

---
Somehow, I seem to be missing something here.

What, specifically, do you want?

Somewhere upstream I thought I heard you ask for a way to transmit the
state of eight dipswitches to a remote location using the power line
as a communications medium. Is that all you want, or is there more to
it?

--
John Fields

[Eduardo Gimeno]

John, what I need is the following:

I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
from a computer, etc...

I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
doing some useful installation at my own home.

I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.

What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
maybe someone knows something which seems to this.

I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

Regards and thanks to everyone for your replies!

Eduardo.

> Somehow, I seem to be missing something here.
>
> What, specifically, do you want?
>
> Somewhere upstream I thought I heard you ask for a way to transmit the
> state of eight dipswitches to a remote location using the power line
> as a communications medium. Is that all you want, or is there more to
> it?

[Eduardo Gimeno]

"Brian" <bmurtha@zworld.com> wrote in message
> I don't know about an "all-in-one" chip. It would have to handle 120V
> or 220V power input to synchronize with the zero crossing. The PL513,
> TW523, LM465 and CM17A units that X-10 sells are fairly cheap. But
> you'll need a TW723 (or is it TW7223?) for 220V, 50Hz systems, if
> that's what Spain uses.

Brian, if I use TW-XXX I cannot embed it into the wall switch or plug,
due to the huge size of the module. As I stated before, I can use a
dedicated line, so I can avoid all the stuff about zero-crossing and
so on. I have quite much experience on ATMega microcontrollers, also
quite much on SGS-Thomson (ST-62XX) and some on PICs. I would need to
find the simplest and smallest one having serial port and at least 12
IOs (8 for station ID dips), 2 for serial port, and 2 for command
in/out...

Regards,
Eduardo.



>
> http://www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/TOC_Related_Info/0411/Murtha.pdf
>
> There's an article in the current Circuit Cellar about using a CM17A
> with an RS232 UART.

[John Fields]

On 14 Feb 2005 23:52:02 -0800, edugimeno@hotmail.com (Eduardo Gimeno)
wrote:

>John, what I need is the following:
>
>I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
>protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
>over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
>about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
>because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.
>
>I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
>lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
>from a computer, etc...
>
>I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
>doing some useful installation at my own home.
>
>I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
>reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
>to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.
>
>What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
>a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
>select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
>from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
>feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
>maybe someone knows something which seems to this.
>
>I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
>whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

---
If you already know how to work with microcontrollers, why not roll
your own?

As far as getting the signal on the line goes, it's pretty simple;
just capacitively couple a high-frequency tone burst signal onto the
mains using a frequency far enough displaced from the mains frequency
that the capacitor looks like a very large reactance to the mains
frequency while being small enough to let your signalling frequency
pass, like this:

Here's a link to some X10 technical documents:

http://www.x10.com/support/technology1.htm

--
John Fields

[Keith Williams]

In article <191432c8.0502142352.14e76a2e@posting.google.com>,
edugimeno@hotmail.com says...
> John, what I need is the following:
>
> I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
> protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
> over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
> about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
> because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.
>
> I just want to have all the stuff X-10 does. I.e: Remote
> lamp/appliance switching, remote IR detection, automated house control
> from a computer, etc...
>
> I will not make any commercial product. I just want to spend my time
> doing some useful installation at my own home.
>
> I would like to find a small and cheap module/ic which I can fit in a
> reduced size PCB of my own with a microcontroller (programmed by me)
> to install in the wall switches and plugs. I can use SMD components.
>
> What I said about using dipswitches an so on was: I would like to find
> a very simple to use IC, which, for example, would have some pins to
> select the station (ie 8 external dipswitches), 2 pins for the signal
> from the line, and some pins for the processed command, which I could
> feed to my microcontroller. I now I am asking for too much... but
> maybe someone knows something which seems to this.
>
> I do not discard using the microcontroller itself to implement the
> whole protocol over a serial port, anyhow.

I'd think this through some more.

1. House resale. X-10 stuff is pretty normal these days. X-10 outlets
and switches wouldn't scare anyone away. I'd not buy a house that had
DIY electrical components in it.

2. Legalities. Many areas have laws regarding what can be tied into
the mains. Your widgets aren't going to be UL/CSA/whatever approved.

3. Liability. If the house catches on fire or someone gets hurt...

4. Insurance. If the house catches on fire you don't have any. If the
insurance company even finds out you have a modified system and
unapproved equipment, you don't have any.

Personally, I'd find another hobby or at least stick with X10/Leviton
devices connected into the mains. I wouldn't be so worried about
things that plug in, though even here I'd be using approved wall warts,
if at all possible.

--
Keith

[Andrew Burgess]

John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

>As far as getting the signal on the line goes, it's pretty simple;
>just capacitively couple a high-frequency tone burst signal onto the
>mains using a frequency far enough displaced from the mains frequency
>that the capacitor looks like a very large reactance to the mains
>frequency while being small enough to let your signalling frequency
>pass, like this:

Can you do this without a transformer?
And if not, can you use a cheap off the shelf or surplus xfmr?

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:52:02 -0800, Eduardo Gimeno wrote:

> John, what I need is the following:
>
> I need to find some IC, Chip, module, etc... which performs all the
> protocol/signal processing/... for transmitting control information
> over a line. At first I was proposing PLC, because I read something
> about X-10 and seemed OK. But now, I can assume using a dedicated line
> because I have an empty spare electrical tube along all the house.

Then install an ethernet. Run Cat 5 UTP through all of the conduit - you
could even use all 4 pairs, and have two actual RJ45s at each outlet, if
you want. You'd have to decide where your main hub is, and mount a jack
there for each one around the house, of course. (You can't daisy-chain
them.)

I can't imagine not being able to find some kind of simple ethernet
interface-on-a-chip, or for that matter, since they're your wires, you
could send something as simple as a contact closure, or 12 VDC to operate
a relay at the remote end.

Your boxes at the lamp end would just plug in like an X-10 box or RS
remote lamp box, but have just a relay, that plugs into the RJ45 jack that
you're using just to send 12V on one of the sets that doesn't use ethernet.

Or, you could plug in a computer and have a real live network. :-)

And since the wall plates just have RJ45s, and it's cat 5 in the conduit,
there's no code to worry about, and you might even _increase_ the
resale value of the house! ("... and this is the Server Room..." ;-) )

Have Fun!
Rich

[Reg]

Rich Grise wrote:

> And since the wall plates just have RJ45s, and it's cat 5 in the conduit,
> there's no code to worry about, and you might even _increase_ the
> resale value of the house! ("... and this is the Server Room..." ;-) )

Interestingly, I just got finished with a San Francisco city inspector
looking at some new AC wiring, and the project also involved running some
cat5.

According to them, the 2002 NEC regs will take effect in August. They
said that had the work taken place after that I would be required to get
specific permits for the "communications" wire.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

[John Fields]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:05:02 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Burgess
<aab@athlon.cichlid.com> wrote:

>John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:
>
>>As far as getting the signal on the line goes, it's pretty simple;
>>just capacitively couple a high-frequency tone burst signal onto the
>>mains using a frequency far enough displaced from the mains frequency
>>that the capacitor looks like a very large reactance to the mains
>>frequency while being small enough to let your signalling frequency
>>pass, like this:
>
>Can you do this without a transformer?

Yes:

MAINS>--+-----+-------------/ /-----+-----+------------------
| | | |
| [C] | [C]
| | | |
| +--+--+ | +--+--+
+--| TX | +--| RX |--[LOAD]--+
| | | | |
+--| | +--| |----------+
| +-----+ | +-----+
| |
| |
MAINS>--+------------------/ /------+------------------------




Looking at the caps connected to the mains, if inside the TX box we
have something like this,:


MAINS>----+----------+
| |
+--+--+ [C1]
|TONE | |
|BURST+-------+
| GEN | |
+--+--+ [R1]
| |
MAINS>----+----------+


what we'll want to do is keep the 170V peak AC from damaging the tone
burst generator, while at the same time allowing the generator to
couple bursts of a high frequency tone to the mains. Just for grins,
let's say that we'd like to keep the 60Hz down to about +/- a volt at
the R1C1 junction, and we'd like R1 to be about 100 ohms. That means
that we'll have to limit the 60Hz current through R1 to


E 1V
I = --- = ------ = 0.01A
R 100R

With 170V on the mains, that means that the impedance of R1C1 has to
look like:


170V
Z = ------- = 17000 ohms
0.01A


Now, since


Z = sqrt (R² + Xc²)


and we need to find the value of C1, we can rearrange to get the
reactance of C1:



Xc = sqrt (Z² - R²) = sqrt (17000² - 100²) ~ 17000R



And the capacitance will be:


1
C = ---------- ~ 0.156µF
2pi f Xc



So now we have this:


MAINS>----+----------+
| |
+--+--+ [0.15µF]
|TONE | |
|BURST+-------+
| GEN | |
+--+--+ [100R]
| |
MAINS>----+----------+

and we want to place a signal on the mains. First we'll choose a nice
high frequency (say 100kHz) so that the reactance of C1 will be nice
and low to it, allowing it to pass through and onto the mains without
attenuating it too much.


At 100kHz the reactance of 0.15µF will be


1
Xc = --------- ~ 10 ohms
2pi f C

So that looks pretty good, and the last thing that needs to be done is
to decide on the output amplitude of the tone burst generator.

If we say that our receiver has a sensitivity threshold of 100mV at
100kHz during the mains zero-crossings, and we want the receiver to
work with a 10kW load on the mains, then our circuit starts to look
like this:


MAINS>----+----------+-------+
| | |
+--+--+ [10R] |
|TONE | | |
|BURST+-------+ [1.44R]
| GEN | | |
+--+--+ [100R] |
| | |
MAINS>----+----------+-------+


Which is essentially this:



+-----+
|TONE |
|BURST+-------+--------+---E1
| GEN | | |
+--+--+ [100R] [10R]R1
| | |
| | +---E2
| | |
| | [1.44R]R2
| | |
+----------+--------+


In order to have E2 be 0.1V, we'll need E1 to be



(R1 + R2)
E1 = E2 ----------- = 0.794V
R2


and the generator will have to pump current into the impedance formed
by everything across the mains, which reduces to:


+----------+
| |
| [10R]
[100R] |
| [1.44R]
| |
+----------+

and, finally, to:



|
[10.26R]
|


which is close enough to 10 ohms for our purpose, which is to
determine how much current the tone burst generator has to supply into
10 ohms to get a drop of 0.794 across it, and since


E 0.79V
I = --- = ------- = 0.079A ~ 80mA
R 10R

it'll be eminently doable, and as a matter of fact, upping it to 1V
would get us better receiver operation and only require 100 mA out of
the tone burst generator.

--
John Fields

[Eduardo Gimeno]

John, thanks for your calculation for the adapter part. Maybe I will
have to use them in short (converted to 50Hz and 220 V...)

Some comments about the replies:

1.-Cabling all the house with Ethernet would be the most profitable
solution, but would also involve making a really big project of the
design, and filling the tubes up with lots of cables. Suppose I need
to have control over ALL the lamps and from all the switches. My house
(2 floors) would have several hubs/switches at given places, and some
tubes would carry more cables than expected due to design of network
(avoid more switches)

2.-I don't know yet the legal problems I would have here in Spain if I
modify the electrical installation, or from the assurance company in
case of fire... I should ask about it before doing anything.

3.-I think I will consider two choices:
a) Using a dedicated cable with a low level protocol, i.e. with
RS485, and a top level protocol of my own in a PIC, for example. The
cable would only have to go through all the switches one time, like a
bus.

b) Using a home-made X10-like protocol, with the indications from
John Fields. Positive: I would avoid using the dedicated cable.
Negative: I would have to train for a while until building the right
"interface" module.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the replies and help!
Eduardo.