Powerline modem

[Gireesh]

Hi all,
I'm engaged in designing a powerline modem. and i'm in search of a
perfect IC for that.
I found HCPL800J DAA with DSP56F801 PLM ?
Is there any one who worked on this ?
Can abnybody suggest me better ICs ?
I need a range of atleat 1 km and the application is Automatic meter
reading

[Dave Houston]

You might find something here...


http://info.iet.unipi.it/~filippo/documenti/powerlines/PowerLineCom/FrameRIF.html

girishdml@gmail.com (Gireesh) wrote:

>Hi all,
>I'm engaged in designing a powerline modem. and i'm in search of a
>perfect IC for that.
>I found HCPL800J DAA with DSP56F801 PLM ?
>Is there any one who worked on this ?
>Can abnybody suggest me better ICs ?
>I need a range of atleat 1 km and the application is Automatic meter
>reading

[Rick Merrill]

Gireesh wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'm engaged in designing a powerline modem. and i'm in search of a
> perfect IC for that.
> I found HCPL800J DAA with DSP56F801 PLM ?
> Is there any one who worked on this ?
> Can abnybody suggest me better ICs ?
> I need a range of atleat 1 km and the application is Automatic meter
> reading

If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM

[Joerg]

Hello Rick,

> If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
> fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
> changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM


For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow channel
bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and filter design
arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are the transformers
that need to be bridged.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:00:32 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

>Hello Rick,
>
>> If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
>> fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
>> changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM
>
>
>For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow channel
>bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and filter design
>arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are the transformers
>that need to be bridged.
>
>Regards, Joerg
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com

The two remote electric power measurement schemes I know of:

(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
pole, then connection to phone lines.

(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
company polls your modem.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Don Lancaster]

Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:00:32 GMT, Joerg
> <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello Rick,
>>
>>
>>>If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
>>>fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
>>>changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM
>>
>>
>>For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow channel
>>bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and filter design
>>arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are the transformers
>>that need to be bridged.
>>
>>Regards, Joerg
>>
>>http://www.analogconsultants.com
>
>
> The two remote electric power measurement schemes I know of:
>
> (1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
> pole, then connection to phone lines.
>
> (2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
> company polls your modem.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.

It did not work then and it will not work now.

Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.



--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

[Rick Merrill]

Don Lancaster wrote:

> Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:00:32 GMT, Joerg
>> <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hello Rick,
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the
>>>> high fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples
>>>> "powerline" changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow
>>> channel bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and
>>> filter design arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are
>>> the transformers that need to be bridged.
>>>
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com
>>
>>
>>
>> The two remote electric power measurement schemes I know of:
>>
>> (1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>> pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>
>> (2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>> company polls your modem.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>
> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
>
> It did not work then and it will not work now.
>
> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
>

There is work that has used cell phone methods to dynamically adapt the
power frequency to fit the power line characteristics. Remember, anytime
an expert says something can be done, he/she is probably right; and
anytime an expert says something can not be done, he/she is probably
wrong. - Rm

[Dave Houston]

Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> wrote:

>Jim Thompson wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:00:32 GMT, Joerg
>> <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello Rick,
>>>
>>>
>>>>If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
>>>>fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
>>>>changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM
>>>
>>>
>>>For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow channel
>>>bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and filter design
>>>arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are the transformers
>>>that need to be bridged.
>>>
>>>Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>>http://www.analogconsultants.com
>>
>>
>> The two remote electric power measurement schemes I know of:
>>
>> (1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>> pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>
>> (2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>> company polls your modem.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
>communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
>
>It did not work then and it will not work now.
>
>Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
>that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.

http://www.archnetco.com/
http://www.sei.co.jp/sn/2004/327/feature_article.html
http://www.advanceddd.com/ADD1010.htm
http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/plc-emeter.html
http://www.yitran.com/
http://vchips.co.kr/eng_product/system.html
http://www.oakvillehydro.com/ohesi_business_meters_quadlogic_utility.asp

[Joerg]

Hi Don,

> It did not work then and it will not work now.


Not for broadband. But for low BW communication it can.

> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise
> filter that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.


Even a brandnew color printer/scanner did that out here. Had to crack
out the toroid box and give it an individual choke per wire plus a cap
which fixed the problem. Lots of people in our neighborhood keep stashes
of Aspirin or Tylenol. I maintain a bucket of $43 toroids.

But remember, X10 is an ancient AM protocol with little noise tolerance.
Then I found that almost all modules were off from carrier frequency so
after tuning them all up this increased liability greatly. If a suitable
multi-frequency narrowband protocol was adopted this kind of appliance
control would work like a champ. It's just that nobody seems to do it,
they don't see the market potential..

As to power metering I probably would first sit down with the financial
people of a cell phone carrier. It doesn't take a lot of their currency
(kb/sec) per account to transfer a meter reading.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[James Knott]

Joerg wrote:

> Lots of people in our neighborhood keep stashes
> of Aspirin or Tylenol. I maintain a bucket of $43 toroids.

Aren't they hard to swallow? ;-)

[Peter]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:00:32 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

>Hello Rick,
>
>> If you have a EE PHD from MIT, go for it. Do you realize that the high
>> fequency transmission characteristics of most peoples "powerline"
>> changes constantly and essentially randomly? - RM
>
>
>For power metering it seems that the OP only needs a very narrow channel
>bandwidth. The challenge will be mostly in the analog and filter design
>arena but it can be done. Then, of course, there are the transformers
>that need to be bridged.
>
With very low channel width and appropriate signalling you do not need
to bridge transformers. However if complex tariffs are envisaged
there may be a need for transmitting up to 24 readings a day per meter
and this may be beyond such systems.

[John]

Don Lancaster wrote:

> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
>
> It did not work then and it will not work now.
>
> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.

Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
somebody forgot to tell these people:
http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm

PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html

Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
to/from their meters.

The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.

[Peter]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:12:19 -0500, John <john_t@no.spam> wrote:

>The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
>communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
>
Wideband power line systems are effectively wireless systems that use
power lines as a rather crude handrail.

[Ron Hunter]

John wrote:
> Don Lancaster wrote:
>
>
>>I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
>>communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
>>
>>It did not work then and it will not work now.
>>
>>Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
>>that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
>
>
> Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
> somebody forgot to tell these people:
> http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm
>
> PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
> markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
> http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html
>
> Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
> distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
> to/from their meters.
>
> The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
> communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
>
The main bar to this type of information distribution is the need to
bridge transformers along the entire data path. This adds cost (and
service delaying infrastructure) to what would otherwise be an already
'in place' data path. It certainly has advantages in simplicity over
other services.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

[James Knott]

John wrote:

> The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
> communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.

It's more than fears. There have been several documented instances of
interference to radio services. The potenial for interference to the data
communications, from radio transmitters also exists.

[Ken Smith]

In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]
>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>pole, then connection to phone lines.
>
>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>company polls your modem.

I'll add:

(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.


I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
has done it for power meters.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:

>In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
>Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
>[...]
>>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>>pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>
>>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>>company polls your modem.
>
>I'll add:
>
>(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
>
>
>I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
>has done it for power meters.
>
>--

I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)

In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:59:32 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
>Smith) wrote:
>
>>In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
>>Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
>>[...]
>>>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>>>pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>>
>>>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>>>company polls your modem.
>>
>>I'll add:
>>
>>(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
>>
>>
>>I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
>>has done it for power meters.
>>
>>--
>
>I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
>industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)
>
>In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
>the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
>rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

http://www.gtiservices.org/amra/amra1/



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:48:21 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:59:32 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
><thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
>>Smith) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
>>>Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>>>>pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>>>
>>>>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>>>>company polls your modem.
>>>
>>>I'll add:
>>>
>>>(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
>>>has done it for power meters.
>>>
>>>--
>>
>>I'm sure you can find other methods as well. This part of the
>>industry hasn't yet standardized. Everything still is in 'beta' ;-)
>>
>>In my neighborhood the "meter reader" plugs a hand-held device into
>>the meter and records the information, my bill is based on three
>>rates: off-peak, on-peak and peak demand.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>http://www.gtiservices.org/amra/amra1/
>
>
>
>Best regards,
>Spehro Pefhany

I did some chip design work for a "modem-per-house" company that was
in (IIRC) Toronto. But they lost their funding before they got it
working.

BTW, if you haven't heard the news...

"PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."

Good riddance, Carly ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Rob Gaddi]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> BTW, if you haven't heard the news...
>
> "PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
> COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
> resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."
>
> Good riddance, Carly ;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead. Now to see if I can't go
defibrillate my poor HP shares.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:12:43 -0600, the renowned Rob Gaddi
<rgaddi@bcm.YUMMYSPAMtmc.edu> wrote:

>Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> BTW, if you haven't heard the news...
>>
>> "PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb 09, 2005 (United Press International via
>> COMTEX) -- The chairman and chief executive of Hewlett-Packard Co. has
>> resigned suddenly in a dispute with the California company's board."
>>
>> Good riddance, Carly ;-)
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>Ding dong, the wicked witch is dead. Now to see if I can't go
>defibrillate my poor HP shares.

Don't count on it happening really fast:

"The uptick in Hewlett-Packard is purely because of market psychology
and will pass as the company still has the same mess in its hand and
doesn't have anyone to run the ship long term," said Cummins
Catherwood, managing director, Walnut Asset Management.

But given my experience with such experts, maybe the above is a 'buy'
signal.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[phil-news-nospam@ipal.net]

In misc.industry.utilities.electric John <john_t@no.spam> wrote:
| Don Lancaster wrote:
|
|> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
|> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
|>
|> It did not work then and it will not work now.
|>
|> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
|> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
|
| Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
| somebody forgot to tell these people:
| http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm
|
| PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
| markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
| http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html
|
| Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
| distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
| to/from their meters.
|
| The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
| communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.

Hams continue to speak out well after BPL is operating. The interference
is documented. Further, BPL is, itself, ruined by nearby transmitters.

Although any wire infrastructure can carry data, it does have limits based
on many factors. And power lines are not designed for high data rates.
They are unshielded, and as a result are susceptible to interference, and
radiate their own interference. Phone lines also have documented problems,
but at least they are twisted. The only part of the power lines that are
twisted are the triplex overhead drops.

BPL is going to be very limited in top speed. As bandwidth goes up, so goes
the sensitivity to noise and interference. Things like electronic ballasts
operating between 20 kHz and 50 kHz are going to be another interference
source.

The power companies are just playing a "me, too" game on this. They wanted
in on the "riches" the internet was bringing to telephone and cable companies.
But as the bandwidth demands of the market top 100 mbps, power companies are
going to be playing the tune "where'd they go?". It's a bad investment for
the power companies. Right now, I wouldn't put any money in their stock.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Joerg]

Hello Peter,

>With very low channel width and appropriate signalling you do not need
>to bridge transformers. However if complex tariffs are envisaged
>there may be a need for transmitting up to 24 readings a day per meter
>and this may be beyond such systems.
>
>

In Germany they send around control signals to turn on "night storage
heaters". Basically a huge block of bricks that is heated up off-peak
and then a fan kicks out the stored heat during the day. Usually there
are several such units per residence. The control of these via the power
grid is very reliable. I believe they can selectively turn on groups of
them but there were some restrictions as to which areas could receive
the control signals to within the prescribed specs.

Anyone who wants to check that out and can read German could search
Google for the terms "Nachtspeicherheizung" and "Rundsteuerung".

Meter reading could be done staggered. That way the amount of data can
be spread out over each month. Pretty much in the same way that the
meter reader travels their monthly route.

But there is one obstacle to all this. I heard from someone in the power
biz that occasionally it was said "so-and-so does not like these
research projects if they lead to the elimination of jobs".

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

[James Knott]

Joerg wrote:

> In Germany they send around control signals to turn on "night storage
> heaters". Basically a huge block of bricks that is heated up off-peak
> and then a fan kicks out the stored heat during the day.

When I was a kid, we had a flat rate electric water heater. It could be
turned off by the power company, during periods of high demand, using a
power line carrier system. The power companies also used the power lines
to carry low speed data. However, neither of those systems required
anywhere near the bandwidth of BPL, nor were they likely to cause
interference.

[Peter]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
Smith) wrote:

>In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
>Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
>[...]
>>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
>>pole, then connection to phone lines.
>>
>>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
>>company polls your modem.
>
>I'll add:
>
>(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
>
>
>I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
>has done it for power meters.
>
It seems interesting that none of these technologies has made
significant inroads into meter reading for smaller customers. About
the only development that has been widely adopted is a hand held
computer to replace the meter reading book.

There has been talk of these systems going hand in hand with demand
side management eg real time pricing, but efforts to reduce the cost
of these systems to a lever where they are worth adopting seem so far
to be without success.

The most successful niche seems to be a low bandwidth system for rural
areas (where meter reading costs are very high) which does not require
transformer bridging ( http://www.turtletech.com ).

[Michael]

Don Lancaster wrote:
(snip)
> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
>
> --
> Many thanks,
>

You should try a *new* Diablo. Much better. ;-)

[John]

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

> In misc.industry.utilities.electric John <john_t@no.spam> wrote:
> | Don Lancaster wrote:
> |
> |> I guess I was involved in the earliest of powerline carrier
> |> communications. Back in 1961 at Femco.
> |>
> |> It did not work then and it will not work now.
> |>
> |> Ferinstance, an ancient Diablo 630 printer has such a good noise filter
> |> that it takes out any X-10 device within 200 feet.
> |
> | Powerline communications doesn't work in the 21st century? Really? Gosh
> | somebody forgot to tell these people:
> | http://www.powerlinecommunications.net/whatispowerline.htm
> |
> | PPL has had running broadband Internet over powerline services in select
> | markets for a few years now. Some other utilties have similar programs.
> | http://www.thestreet.com/_tsclsii/tech/themarker/10045487.html
> |
> | Utilities not only have another revenue stream and an efficient Internet
> | distribution method, but also gain the benefit of a communications channel
> | to/from their meters.
> |
> | The ARRL (amateur radio group) has spoken out against some powerline
> | communications, out of fears that it will cause interference to them.
>
> Hams continue to speak out well after BPL is operating. The interference
> is documented. Further, BPL is, itself, ruined by nearby transmitters.
>
> Although any wire infrastructure can carry data, it does have limits based
> on many factors. And power lines are not designed for high data rates.
> They are unshielded, and as a result are susceptible to interference, and
> radiate their own interference. Phone lines also have documented problems,
> but at least they are twisted. The only part of the power lines that are
> twisted are the triplex overhead drops.
>
> BPL is going to be very limited in top speed. As bandwidth goes up, so goes
> the sensitivity to noise and interference. Things like electronic ballasts
> operating between 20 kHz and 50 kHz are going to be another interference
> source.
>
> The power companies are just playing a "me, too" game on this. They wanted
> in on the "riches" the internet was bringing to telephone and cable companies.
> But as the bandwidth demands of the market top 100 mbps, power companies are
> going to be playing the tune "where'd they go?".

Only 100 Mbps? That's a hell of a lot more then dial-up, which is the only hope
of any Internet access at all (save satellite) in much of the USA where cable is
not available and DSL lines are not available either due to DSL's numerous
limitations. It's a lot more then DSL capabilities and cable broadband offerings
too.

You forget that the power utilities aren't setting out to do this to become
Internet companies, they were looking for efficient ways to communicate with their
meters (and utility controlled thermostats). Being able to offer and sell
Internet broadband access is a nice side effect of having the infrastructure.

> It's a bad investment for
> the power companies. Right now, I wouldn't put any money in their stock.

PPL has done quite nicely the last few years and is a fairly conservatively run
company.

[John]

Peter wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:43:24 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken
> Smith) wrote:
>
> >In article <i4uf01doft60n1f23rt4ep34kf7b8o5d6u@4ax.com>,
> >Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
> >[...]
> >>(1) RF transmitter at your meter, "neighborhood" receiver located on a
> >>pole, then connection to phone lines.
> >>
> >>(2) Modem connection between your meter and *your* phone line. Power
> >>company polls your modem.
> >
> >I'll add:
> >
> >(3) An RF responder that is pinged from a truck going down the street.
> >
> >
> >I know, some places use this for water meters, but I expect that someone
> >has done it for power meters.
> >
> It seems interesting that none of these technologies has made
> significant inroads into meter reading for smaller customers. About
> the only development that has been widely adopted is a hand held
> computer to replace the meter reading book.

Maybe where you live. Here the gas company reads the meter electronically
via radio as they drive down the street and similar story for the electricity
company.

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John <john_t@no.spam> wrote (in
<420BF787.C5273F15@no.spam>) about 'Powerline modem', on Thu, 10 Feb
2005:

>You forget that the power utilities aren't setting out to do this to
>become Internet companies, they were looking for efficient ways to
>communicate with their meters (and utility controlled thermostats).

This can be done very well using frequencies below 150 kHz which don't
create huge EMI problems.
>
>Being able to offer and sell Internet broadband access is a nice side
>effect of having the infrastructure.

Not at any price; the emission levels 3 to 30 MHz are 60 dB or so above
those currently accepted. It's very far indeed from a marginal increase.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

[Gary]

"Gireesh" <girishdml@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb0a9f46.0502070435.fa1870b@posting.google.co m...
> Hi all,
> I'm engaged in designing a powerline modem. and i'm in search of a
> perfect IC for that.
> I found HCPL800J DAA with DSP56F801 PLM ?
> Is there any one who worked on this ?
> Can abnybody suggest me better ICs ?
> I need a range of atleat 1 km and the application is Automatic meter
> reading

If you haven't already discovered it, there is a lot of helpful information
on the Freescale Semiconductor web page for the DSP568xx family. There are
a couple of brochures on power line modems and power meters implemented with
the DSP568xx family. This link is a good place to start:
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=DSP56F803

You may also want to contact your local Freescale representative, as they
can point you to more detailed information the implementation of power line
modems on the DSP568xx family.

-Gary