Hard-wired HA lighting; was Re: XTB, reliablity, etc.

[Marc_F_Hult]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:30:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
<ud6dnbYPAvgnruDYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@rcn.net>:

>"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
>
><stuff snipped>
>
>> Take the example of converting to centralized hard-wired
>> dimming of a ceiling light powered through a wall switch.
>
>That ceiling light represents perhaps one tenth of my HA use. Most of my
>modules are plugged into outlets or powerstrips controlling free-standing
>lamps and devices. When you have to start pulling wire to every switch and
>outlet in the house to create a truly hardwired control system, you're
>talking about turning the house upside. Wifey no like!
>
>> Commonly you
>> can get to the supply to that individual switch where it comes up the
>> wall from the basement. Retrofitting for a centralized hardwired system
>> consists in replacing the SPST switch with a wirenut, replacing the
>> faceplate with the hole with one with no hole, and running a 14/2+G to
>> the dimmer panel through the basement ceiling. How hard is that?
>
>See my response to Brian about how hard that can be. I stand by what I said
>to him. Running a new three-way switch - just a manual version - takes a
>heck of lot more time and effort than doing it via X-10, at least for me.

And a good example of where INSTEON runs rings around X-10 for a variety of
reasons.

>As I said to Brian, the devil lives in the details.
>
[several useful examples of nitty-gritty realities of practical DIY home
maintenance snipped]

>Remember the poor guy from Puerto Rico with the concrete house? He's not
>pulling cable any more easily than setting up and debugging X-10. It's easy
>to discount all that you and Brian know and have learned to be able to pull
>your own wire. I maintain that X-10 requires a similar level of knowledge
>to be used effectively. Lots of people feel that it shouldn't,

Well, lottsa people say lottsa things. I, for one, have never said this
(ABIK).

>but that's
>life, I guess. Lots of people believe computers shouldn't have so many
>things to fuss with but believing it doesn't make it so.

My point (as usual) is that hard-wired lighting and other hard-wired AC power
control can/may have its place in most every automated home. It is not helpful
to describe the decision as Either/Or in my opinion. There is no need to bet
on horses or root for the home team or otherwise disparage or ignore
alternatives in my opinion.

PLC, RF, IR and hard-wired can coexist. I have decided on technical grounds
(and experiences reported in this newsgroup and elsewhere) that INSTEON and
X-10 do not play well enough together (for my purposes) despite what the
manufacturer claims. I like the improvements afforded by INSTEON including the
all-important tactile switch response. So the mix of AC wiring control in my
house has migrated from X-10 + hardwired to INSTEON + hard-wired.

(and FWIW, the $200+ you jist spent on XTB X-10 boosters (however useful they
are) to replace the X-10 boosters for which you previously _also_ spent
perfectly good money on, woulda got you ten (10) INSTEON dimmers + change --
currently *still* $19.99 each with free shipping from you know where.

....Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.EControl.org

[Marc_F_Hult]

On 8 Dec 2006 15:08:26 -0800, craft.brian@gmail.com wrote in message
<1165613746.198598.192620@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>:

>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:16:57 -0500, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM>
>> wrote in message <CbKdnWAfvr2a6OTYnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@rcn.net>:
>
>> Four _more_ ? Have you ever calculated what all the X-10 expenditures have
>> cost you over the years. And how much you would have earned had you spent
the
>> time tinkering with it on, say, a paper route or mowing lawns instead? Or
>> better yet, pulling wire?
>
>Pulling wire. Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The ads that suggest
>x10 as a way to "add a light switch anywhere" are clearly nonsense. It
>takes far, far less time and money to pull romex and install a switch
>than it does to make x10 reliable.
>
>But for true automation applications, what wire can be pulled? My
>impression was that hardwired systems are all fantastically expensive
>and available only to dealers/installers.

Depends in part on what you mean by "hardwired systems".

It is useful to distinguish off-the-bat between hard-wired ON-OFF and
hard-wired dimming of lights.

Hard-wired ON-OFF is something that can be controlled easily from (eg) a PC
port,ADICON Ocelot or Elk M1G, or even a hybrid control (such as X-10,
INSTEON, RF _and_ hard-wired) and can be accomplished with simple mechanical
relays or contactors. Updates to the US and Canadian electrical codes in the
past decade have made it somewhat easier to pass muster with the Authority
Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) of the National Electrical Code (NEC in US).

Hard-wired light _dimming_ is a different matter. Compared to ON-OFF, dimming
with any control signal method (PLC, RF, IR, hard-wired) is more challenging
than ON_OFF owing to:

1) the incremental difficulty of meeting code and regulatory requirements
2) the greater complexity of the hardware required
3) larger bandwidth needed for control signals
4) increase in propagated noise both through air and on the powerline.

In addition, hard-wired dimming (compared to, eg X-10) ) has the added
challenges/requirements of:

5) the prevalence of proprietary hard-wired systems (DMX512 is a notable
exception)
6) Generally greater physical/space requirements

But there are several hard-wired dimming lighting systems that are available
to DIY folks.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

[Marc_F_Hult]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:30:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
<ud6dnbYPAvgnruDYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@rcn.net>:

>"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
>
><stuff snipped>
>
>> Take the example of converting to centralized hard-wired
>> dimming of a ceiling light powered through a wall switch.
>
>That ceiling light represents perhaps one tenth of my HA use. Most of my
>modules are plugged into outlets or powerstrips controlling free-standing
>lamps and devices. When you have to start pulling wire to every switch and
>outlet in the house to create a truly hardwired control system, you're
>talking about turning the house upside. Wifey no like!

"[] have to start pulling wire to every switch and outlet in the house" ?!.

HippoSpeak Alert ;-} Does one 'have to start installing X-10 to every switch
and outlet in the house' in order to use X-10 anywhere at all?

Rest assured that there nuthin about hard-wired lighting that requires this.
One can have hard-wired control of a single light or outlet. The choice of
which to run hardwired and which to control via PLC, RF or IR can be based on
actual need and circumstances and not dogma.

But hard-wired, however reliable is not a panacea. For example, the common
need for dimming lamps with cords through wall-mounted receptacles does
present a special case for hard-wired dimming that is (OIME) commonly
improperly installed by home-improvement enthusiasts even when the dimmer is a
conventional, non-automated manual, wall-mounted dimmer and not automated (eg
X-10, INSTEON, Z-wave, Centralite).

Wall outlets (receptacles) compliant with US and Canadian electrical codes are
listed for either nominal 120 or 240 volts. The National Electrical Code (NEC)
effectively prohibits the dimming of standard (typically "duplex")
receptacles with standard dimmers through (at least):

110-3(B). Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.

404.14(E) Dimmer Switches. General-use dimmer switches shall be
used only to control permanently installed incandescent luminaires
(lighting fixtures) unless listed for the control of other loads
and installed accordingly.

One apparently approved way to power a dimmed outlet is to use a Lutron Duplex
for Dimming Use (DFDU) or Half For Dimming Use (HFDU) receptacle and For
Dimming Use (FDU) mating plug.

http://www.lutron.com/instructions/030825d.pdf
http://www.lutron.com/applicationnotes/048085b.pdf

Unfortunately, these are only UL-listed for use with 14 specific Lutron dimmer
families and three control systems. Ironically, of these, the dimmers most
frequently supported by the HA control systems frequently discussed in this
newsgroup is RadioRA -- an RF-based system.

And a Lutron plug and receptacle cost ~$30 (! -- if you can find 'em) so
dimming of portable (plug-in) lamps is one use where X-10/INSTEON/Z-wave/etc
_modules_ have significant advantages over hard-wired owing to practical
(don't want to burn out the vacuum cleaner) regulatory and cost
considerations.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.EControl.org

[Robert Green]

"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:q6brn2pbfsu4ldnaikhu80mf691c0ptp25@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:30:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
> <ud6dnbYPAvgnruDYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@rcn.net>:
>
> >"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
> >
> ><stuff snipped>
> >
> >> Take the example of converting to centralized hard-wired
> >> dimming of a ceiling light powered through a wall switch.
> >
> >That ceiling light represents perhaps one tenth of my HA use. Most of my
> >modules are plugged into outlets or powerstrips controlling free-standing
> >lamps and devices. When you have to start pulling wire to every switch
and
> >outlet in the house to create a truly hardwired control system, you're
> >talking about turning the house upside. Wifey no like!
> >
> >> Commonly you
> >> can get to the supply to that individual switch where it comes up the
> >> wall from the basement. Retrofitting for a centralized hardwired system
> >> consists in replacing the SPST switch with a wirenut, replacing the
> >> faceplate with the hole with one with no hole, and running a 14/2+G to
> >> the dimmer panel through the basement ceiling. How hard is that?
> >
> >See my response to Brian about how hard that can be. I stand by what I
said
> >to him. Running a new three-way switch - just a manual version - takes a
> >heck of lot more time and effort than doing it via X-10, at least for me.
>
> And a good example of where INSTEON runs rings around X-10 for a variety
of
> reasons.

They've had twenty plus years to study the problem. I would HOPE that they
made some improvements! :-)

> >As I said to Brian, the devil lives in the details.
> >
> [several useful examples of nitty-gritty realities of practical DIY home
> maintenance snipped]
>
> >Remember the poor guy from Puerto Rico with the concrete house? He's not
> >pulling cable any more easily than setting up and debugging X-10. It's
easy
> >to discount all that you and Brian know and have learned to be able to
pull
> >your own wire. I maintain that X-10 requires a similar level of
knowledge
> >to be used effectively. Lots of people feel that it shouldn't,
>
> Well, lottsa people say lottsa things. I, for one, have never said this
> (ABIK).

Nor have I accused you of it, AFAIK. (-: It just seems to be a commonly
expressed sentiment here and elsewhere.

> >but that's
> >life, I guess. Lots of people believe computers shouldn't have so many
> >things to fuss with but believing it doesn't make it so.
>
> My point (as usual) is that hard-wired lighting and other hard-wired AC
power
> control can/may have its place in most every automated home. It is not
helpful
> to describe the decision as Either/Or in my opinion. There is no need to
bet
> on horses or root for the home team or otherwise disparage or ignore
> alternatives in my opinion.

I'm quite well aware that there are newer systems that offer far better
out-of-the-box reliability than X-10 but I am faced with the issue of sunk
costs. When I can't push X-10 any farther, I'll doubtless look into them
much more carefully, but I feel Jeff's XTB has bought another five, if not
ten years of useful life out of my X-10 system.

I also have another issue to deal with. My wife hates upgrades. She hates
it when the IT staff where she works forces her to learn a new OS and new
apps. She hated it when I tried to foist a One-For-All remote on her as a
replacement for the X-10 remotes she had grudgingly learned to operate. Her
enthusiasm for HA is roughly equivalent to my affinity for cleaning up her
diarrhea covered rescue dogs when she is on travel. I deal with it, but I'd
rather not! Unless an HA system comes along that makes the changeover
transparent (not likely) we're probably going to continue with X-10.
Monitoring her Rascal, her pregnant canine is really the first thing that's
come along that's sharpened her interest in the capabilities of HA. Up
until now at least, HA has, for her, mostly been a solution in search of a
problem to solve.

> PLC, RF, IR and hard-wired can coexist. I have decided on technical
grounds
> (and experiences reported in this newsgroup and elsewhere) that INSTEON
and
> X-10 do not play well enough together (for my purposes) despite what the
> manufacturer claims. I like the improvements afforded by INSTEON including
the
> all-important tactile switch response. So the mix of AC wiring control in
my
> house has migrated from X-10 + hardwired to INSTEON + hard-wired.

That's a perfectly rational choice. HA component selection is obviously a
multiple attribute decision making process. If I were still doing that sort
of work, I'd gen up a table of qualities like tactile response, low price,
high reliability and so on, and assign them a ranking to try to determine
which system fit best. You've decided Insteon works well for you for a
number of reasons which just happen to rank fairly low in my ordering of
attributes.

I want lots of controllers spread throughout the house. I want the devices
to be inexpensive. I can tolerate a modest level of mis-operation (a light
failing to fire when activated by a motion sensor) and I don't much care
about the feel of wall switches because there are really only three wall
switches that we ever use. None of those wall switches are ever dimmed.
Our requirements and preferences are clearly quite different, but that
doesn't mean either of our choices are wrong.

> (and FWIW, the $200+ you jist spent on XTB X-10 boosters (however useful
they
> are) to replace the X-10 boosters for which you previously _also_ spent
> perfectly good money on, woulda got you ten (10) INSTEON dimmers +
change --
> currently *still* $19.99 each with free shipping from you know where.

As I've noted before I am *very* reluctant to torture the old wiring in my
house for any reason. That especially includes swapping out X-10 switches
that work well for us with Insteon switches that would work equally as well,
but which would be completely uncontrollable by the types of control devices
we rely on most. It just doesn't make sense for us and it has little to do
with any boosterism for X-10 or dislike of Insteon. It's just not a
practical solution for people like us who very rarely use a wallswitch for
anything, especially dimming. If, when changing out the switches, I broke
one of the already short and over-twisted wall wires, I'd have to do a lot
of grunt work to repair it. No thanks!

We use a fairly simple setup that's affordable because X-10 modules are so
inexpensive. In the rec room, for instance, the first press of B6 brings up
a single incandescent fixture near the stairwell. The second press
activates 1/2 of the fluorescent ceiling fixtures (every other unit). The
third press turns on the remaining units. One house/unit code (and
therefore one button) controls three levels of lighting.

Mostly, we only use the first level when passing by. When we're in the
room, we'll light just half of it and if we're doing something that
requires a lot of light, we press the button three times and all the modules
come on. This is accomplished by piggybacking modules set to the same
code. A very substantial benefit is that the ceiling fluorescents no longer
come on after a power line interruption. The first module, connected to an
incandescent lamp sometimes does, but that's a lot better than the whole
room lighting up.

When piggybacked, the downstream modules don't react to the first powerline
blip - only the first module does. Another benefit is that piggybacking
defeats local sensing. The fixtures that used to turn themselves back on
soon after being turned off no longer do so when piggybacked. Who needs
local control for ceiling fixtures without switches anyway. And best of
all, there's no module diode castration involved!

I came up with the idea when I used to use my X-10 RF belt controller in the
color darkroom. I wanted to make sure the lights would never come on
accidentally and that it would take at least two or three button presses to
activate them.

It's a very practical way to vary light levels with COTS fluorescents using
appliance modules and it only consumes a single unit code. I have no idea
whether I could do that with Insteon or another protocol, and I would be
loathe to abandon it. It's also very intuitive. Want more light? Hold the
button down. The only downside is that if you want to go from all lights
back to the single stairwell light, you have to turn them all off first.
That hasn't been very often.

It does consume a lot of appliance modules but they can be had new for less
than five bucks apiece. That's 1/4 the price of the cheapest Insteon
switch, BTW. So for the price of some powerstrips and modules, I can have
tri-level lighting for what a single Insteon switch would cost. I don't see
any benefits, I'm afraid, only negatives if I were to switch.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:egbrn2pcg4o8r1prfgqlp4hrl8ckpc9mi5@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:30:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
> <ud6dnbYPAvgnruDYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@rcn.net>:
>
> >"Marc_F_Hult" <MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
> >
> ><stuff snipped>
> >
> >> Take the example of converting to centralized hard-wired
> >> dimming of a ceiling light powered through a wall switch.
> >
> >That ceiling light represents perhaps one tenth of my HA use. Most of my
> >modules are plugged into outlets or powerstrips controlling free-standing
> >lamps and devices. When you have to start pulling wire to every switch
and
> >outlet in the house to create a truly hardwired control system, you're
> >talking about turning the house upside. Wifey no like!
>
> "[] have to start pulling wire to every switch and outlet in the house"
?!.
>
> HippoSpeak Alert ;-} Does one 'have to start installing X-10 to every
switch
> and outlet in the house' in order to use X-10 anywhere at all?

No, of course not. You may have misread the comment you cited. What I
meant was that MY installation could not be replicated by standard hardwired
lighting-oriented control systems unless I automated plenty of outlets as
well as light switches. Since most hardwire systems are very heavily
lighting oriented and very poorly outlet oriented, there's really nothing in
hardwire I know of that can duplicate the functionality I have now with X-10
within a reasonable budget. I would indeed have to turn the entire house
inside-out to come close with hardwiring to what I have with X-10. I hope
that clarifies my comment.

To duplicate what I control with my X-10 equipment with any number of high
end, hardwired system would cost thousands of dollars, take significant
installation time and effort and would, to the best of my knowledge, still
be unable to integrate the types of devices I can control with a single
8-in-1 X-10 RF remote.

I know my wife's reaction to more than one remote on the coffee table or the
nightstand and it's not good. Nothing I've seen (at least nothing near a
price point I like!) comes closes the power and flexibility of a $20 X-10
remote. One reason I've stuck so hard with X-10 is that nothing else offers
the breadth of controllers and manufacturers. I can choose (and have
chosen) Smarthome, X-10, Leviton, WGL, Monterey, Elk and any number of other
X-10 product vendors. I have keyfob controllers, automatic timers, handheld
multifunction remotes, RF wall switches, hardwired wall switches, Palmpads,
panic buttons, etc. all without mortgaging the home. And they all speak the
same, standard, NON-proprietary protocol. I like the idea of open systems,
and that's another reason X-10 appeals to me and some of the newer protocols
do not.

> Rest assured that there nuthin about hard-wired lighting that requires
this.
> One can have hard-wired control of a single light or outlet.

And one can build a replica of the Eiffel Tower from toothpicks but people
don't, in my experience, automate a single light or outlet. At least not
for long. The ones that do have usually just bought an X-10 starter kit and
are at the very threshold of their addiction to HA. How many people do you
know that have installed something like HAI/ALS or Centralite just to
control a single device? I doubt it's many.

> The choice of which to run hardwired and which to control via PLC, RF
> or IR can be based on actual need and circumstances and not dogma.

I consider myself pretty thorough at performing requirements analyses. At
least I got paid well to do it in a former life. I know my needs and my
environment. The only "dog ma" that's driving my HA design is my wife's
newest acquisition - a terribly pregnant rat terrier - you know, like the
RCA dog, Nipper, Victrolas, "His Master's Voice" etc. which I'll bet half
the young whippersnappers here have never heard of!

We're trying to work out a way to monitor her crate in the basement with
CCTV, temperature and sound so we know when she's about to whelp. Say,
you're a sensor guru. What my wife and I *both* would like is an odor
detector that can tell us if the dog has just defecated in her crate long
before the smell gets into the central air handler. One teensy little rat
terrier can emit a stink fog that could easily be considered chemical
warfare under the Geneva Convention! :-)

Even worse is that if we don't catch an unscheduled dump in time, the dog
will roll around in her own dung and that's just plain yucky. I created a
false floor out of an old window fan grate so that liquid waste falls into
the tray below, but solid waste only gets pushed through slowly as the dog
moves around in the crate. Isn't that more than you ever wanted to know
about dog dung? You'd be a hero to my wife, like Jeff and Davet are, if you
could come up with a reliable poop scent detector.

So far, the only idea I've had is to mount some sort of position sensor on
the dog's collar since the dog does a little dance before she poops and
*usually* turns two complete circles in the crate before opening the bomb
bay doors. I know that from the CCTV monitor tapes. I suppose I could use
image processing like the gent with the pet door but I don't think it would
be as reliable as a poop stink detector. There's nothing funnier than both
of us watching a DVD or eating dinner and watching both our noses crinkle at
the same time as the sh!t literally hits the fan and we rush downstairs to
minimize the dung rolling and begin the dog and crate cleanup.

> But hard-wired, however reliable is not a panacea. For example, the common
> need for dimming lamps with cords through wall-mounted receptacles does
> present a special case for hard-wired dimming that is (OIME) commonly
> improperly installed by home-improvement enthusiasts even when the dimmer
is a
> conventional, non-automated manual, wall-mounted dimmer and not automated
(eg
> X-10, INSTEON, Z-wave, Centralite).

On this we concur. My wife's fondness for refurbishing old table and floor
lamps means that almost all our lighting comes not from ceiling fixtures,
but from free-standing lamps. Ironically, neither one of us is much of a
dimmer user, which is probably just as well considering we're slowly
switching over to CFL's. For this sort of environment, a simple X-10
appliance module works very nicely. On the few lights we ever dim, and for
those that are part of the "ALL LIGHTS ON" set, we use lamp modules and
incandescent bulbs because appliance modules will not respond to that
command.

<stuff snipped>

> so dimming of portable (plug-in) lamps is one use where
X-10/INSTEON/Z-wave/etc
> _modules_ have significant advantages over hard-wired owing to practical
> (don't want to burn out the vacuum cleaner) regulatory and cost
> considerations.

On this we also agree. It's easy to see why X-10 is so useful to us with
our particular environment and use pattern and why I am reluctant to move to
any of the current hard-wired platforms. I find it very convenient to be
able to not only control all the AV devices from a single remote, but to
control all of the electrical fixtures as well. Controlling all the basic AV
and house functions via a single remote is something that's got very high
SAF. My greatest frustration is that the UR24A remote can't operate all
housecodes without a number of keypresses to reset the base housecode.

If I ever develop better soldering skills, I could even fix that by
implementing Dan Lanciani's modified PIC. But it's not really that big an
issue since every room now has a Control Linc Maxi all house code controller
feeding into an XTB. It's a very nice setup. The only tweak I foresee is
adding a switch to the Control Linc so that I can use the macro keys with
the lid removed. That involves finding the internal contacts for the lid
switch and leading them off to a mini pushbutton mounted somewhere on the
case.

Is there any other HA protocol out there that has a 256 device programmable
table top controller for under $50?

--
Bobby G.