zoned or not zoned?? thermostatic control of multiple spaces

[Lighthouse]

I really wasn't sure how to title this msg. i have a building w/ 3 apts
heated by a single boiler. currently there is one unit which maintains
the thermostat.

i would like to monitor the temp in each unit, but control the boiler
from the utility room. oh yeah, and i don't want to pay for some fancy
overpriced zoning system.

it would be nice if i could do this w/ some type of wireless sensors--i
see wireless thermometers always available for about $20 or so. it
seems like there should be some way to modify these to do what i want.
i don't know enough to be able to do this on my own, but i'm smart
enough to follow instructions if anyone has some ideas.

hard-wired isn't necessarily out of the question, but i have no idea
how i might use 3 living area thermostats and set a control temp that
may not match any of them.

what i'm trying to avoid is having a single tenant freeze out or sweat
out the other two. at the other extreme, i don't want the boiler
responding to all three tenants setting their therms to 85 degrees.

i'm hoping that by having temps reported from the 3 living areas to a
"master" thermostat i can create some reasonable control. IOW, i need
actual temp readings from the remote locations (rather than just on/off
signals) so that a thermostat in an unheated basement can control the
boiler. i hope that makes sense.

any ideas? TIA.

[Robert L Bass]

> i would like to monitor the temp in each
> unit, but control the boiler from the utility
> room...

You could install a single thermostat in the boiler room and run remote temperature probes to the three apartments. Set the
temperature from the utility room triggering the boiler on the lowest remote temperature being sensed.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Lighthouse]

Robert thanks, but i'm not sure ~how~ to do that. what kind of remote
temperature probes do i use? can you point me to an example? would i be
able to see the temperatures of the probes in the boiler room? not
crucial, but nice to have. i'd like to know if the lowest temperature
is 50 degrees or 70 degrees.


Robert L Bass wrote:
> > i would like to monitor the temp in each
> > unit, but control the boiler from the utility
> > room...
>
> You could install a single thermostat in the boiler room and run remote temperature probes to the three apartments. Set the
> temperature from the utility room triggering the boiler on the lowest remote temperature being sensed.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> 941-866-1100
> 4883 Fallcrest Circle
> Sarasota · Florida · 34233
> http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
> =============================>

[Robert L Bass]

> Robert thanks, but i'm not sure ~how~ to do that.

I'll have to ask tech support at my thermoistat supplier. I'll try to get
an answer tomorrow unles someone else chimes in first.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

========================>
Bass Home Electronics
Online DIY Alarm & Automation Store
941-866-1100
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
=========================>

[Bill Kearney]

If it's hot water heated how about you call a local HVAC contractor?

It might be better to spend a little more money and setup actual zones.
That way if you put different thermostats in different units you'll have a
chance to actually control how each one is heated. It's rather pointless to
have multiple temperature sensors if there's not actually a way to control
zones.

That and an HVAC contractor might also be able to help with the specifics of
a rented dwelling. There may be some ways to have the central controller be
able to limit things (like tenant's cranking it up to 85, etc).

It shouldn't be all that expensive to have someone look at the setup and
suggest how to put zones on it.

-Bill Kearney

"Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165366626.401890.76070@73g2000cwn.googlegrou ps.com...
> I really wasn't sure how to title this msg. i have a building w/ 3 apts
> heated by a single boiler. currently there is one unit which maintains
> the thermostat.
>
> i would like to monitor the temp in each unit, but control the boiler
> from the utility room. oh yeah, and i don't want to pay for some fancy
> overpriced zoning system.
>
> it would be nice if i could do this w/ some type of wireless sensors--i
> see wireless thermometers always available for about $20 or so. it
> seems like there should be some way to modify these to do what i want.
> i don't know enough to be able to do this on my own, but i'm smart
> enough to follow instructions if anyone has some ideas.
>
> hard-wired isn't necessarily out of the question, but i have no idea
> how i might use 3 living area thermostats and set a control temp that
> may not match any of them.
>
> what i'm trying to avoid is having a single tenant freeze out or sweat
> out the other two. at the other extreme, i don't want the boiler
> responding to all three tenants setting their therms to 85 degrees.
>
> i'm hoping that by having temps reported from the 3 living areas to a
> "master" thermostat i can create some reasonable control. IOW, i need
> actual temp readings from the remote locations (rather than just on/off
> signals) so that a thermostat in an unheated basement can control the
> boiler. i hope that makes sense.
>
> any ideas? TIA.

[Lighthouse]

you're probably right Bill, but there's this part of me that loves to
cobble stuff together that works just as well or better than a
commercial product. thanks but i hope to gather more "tinkerer's"
advice here.


Bill Kearney wrote:
> If it's hot water heated how about you call a local HVAC contractor?
>
> It might be better to spend a little more money and setup actual zones.
> That way if you put different thermostats in different units you'll have a
> chance to actually control how each one is heated. It's rather pointless to
> have multiple temperature sensors if there's not actually a way to control
> zones.
>
> That and an HVAC contractor might also be able to help with the specifics of
> a rented dwelling. There may be some ways to have the central controller be
> able to limit things (like tenant's cranking it up to 85, etc).
>
> It shouldn't be all that expensive to have someone look at the setup and
> suggest how to put zones on it.
>
> -Bill Kearney
>
> "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165366626.401890.76070@73g2000cwn.googlegrou ps.com...
> > I really wasn't sure how to title this msg. i have a building w/ 3 apts
> > heated by a single boiler. currently there is one unit which maintains
> > the thermostat.
> >
> > i would like to monitor the temp in each unit, but control the boiler
> > from the utility room. oh yeah, and i don't want to pay for some fancy
> > overpriced zoning system.
> >
> > it would be nice if i could do this w/ some type of wireless sensors--i
> > see wireless thermometers always available for about $20 or so. it
> > seems like there should be some way to modify these to do what i want.
> > i don't know enough to be able to do this on my own, but i'm smart
> > enough to follow instructions if anyone has some ideas.
> >
> > hard-wired isn't necessarily out of the question, but i have no idea
> > how i might use 3 living area thermostats and set a control temp that
> > may not match any of them.
> >
> > what i'm trying to avoid is having a single tenant freeze out or sweat
> > out the other two. at the other extreme, i don't want the boiler
> > responding to all three tenants setting their therms to 85 degrees.
> >
> > i'm hoping that by having temps reported from the 3 living areas to a
> > "master" thermostat i can create some reasonable control. IOW, i need
> > actual temp readings from the remote locations (rather than just on/off
> > signals) so that a thermostat in an unheated basement can control the
> > boiler. i hope that makes sense.
> >
> > any ideas? TIA.

[Marc_F_Hult]

On 5 Dec 2006 16:57:06 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
message <1165366626.401890.76070@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.co m>:

>I really wasn't sure how to title this msg. i have a building w/ 3 apts
>heated by a single boiler. currently there is one unit which maintains
>the thermostat.
>
>i would like to monitor the temp in each unit, but control the boiler
>from the utility room. oh yeah, and i don't want to pay for some fancy
>overpriced zoning system.
>
>it would be nice if i could do this w/ some type of wireless sensors--i
>see wireless thermometers always available for about $20 or so. it
>seems like there should be some way to modify these to do what i want.
>i don't know enough to be able to do this on my own, but i'm smart
>enough to follow instructions if anyone has some ideas.
>
>hard-wired isn't necessarily out of the question, but i have no idea
>how i might use 3 living area thermostats and set a control temp that
>may not match any of them.
>
>what i'm trying to avoid is having a single tenant freeze out or sweat
>out the other two. at the other extreme, i don't want the boiler
>responding to all three tenants setting their therms to 85 degrees.
>
>i'm hoping that by having temps reported from the 3 living areas to a
>"master" thermostat i can create some reasonable control. IOW, i need
>actual temp readings from the remote locations (rather than just on/off
>signals) so that a thermostat in an unheated basement can control the
>boiler. i hope that makes sense.
>
>any ideas? TIA.

I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated PC.

But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of the
ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future zoned
system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:

1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment in
no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I suggest
using CAT-5.

2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats. You
might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
thermostats.

3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum tolerable
high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable low
temperature (say 66 F).

4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
location that you can access.

5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled contacts
of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates a
logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.

6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.

7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in series
with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with the
TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).

This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of the
six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE limits
and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
located thermostat.

As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
"tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

[Lighthouse]

Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
out for me?

what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.

thanks for the ideas!

Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>
> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated PC.
>
> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of the
> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future zoned
> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
>
> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment in
> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I suggest
> using CAT-5.
>
> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats. You
> might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
> thermostats.
>
> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum tolerable
> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable low
> temperature (say 66 F).
>
> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
> location that you can access.
>
> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled contacts
> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates a
> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
>
> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
>
> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in series
> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with the
> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
>
> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of the
> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE limits
> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
> located thermostat.
>
> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
>
> ... Marc
> Marc_F_Hult
> www.ECOntrol.org

[Bill Kearney]

> i could possibly camo the therms
> inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.

Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
risks, right?

Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.

When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems like
that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of the
tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.

-Bill Kearney

[Lighthouse]

don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.
i'm not installing high voltage security fencing in the living units.
i'm looking to replace an existing thermostat. i won't do anything
unless i understand it completely. that's why i asked for some
additional clarification. i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
thermostats w/o blowing anything up.


Bill Kearney wrote:
> > i could possibly camo the therms
> > inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>
> Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
> risks, right?
>
> Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
> that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
> tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
>
> When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems like
> that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of the
> tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.
>
> -Bill Kearney

[Marc_F_Hult]

To answer your last question first:

One could/can use simple inexpensive, traditional Honeywell thermostats that
have a bimetallic spring as the temperature sensor and a mercury (ugh :-( tilt
switch as the switching mechanism. But these have a manual COOL-OFF-HEAT
setting in part because you can only set the dial to one temperature, not two.
If there are inexpensive thermostats available that let you set two
temperatures (I dunno), that is, separate COOL ON and HEAT ON settings, they
might be adapted to your use. Okay so far?

Assuming that you have a thermostat arrangement (whether one or two physical
units) that complete two circuits with a Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST)
switches when the temperature is TOO COLD or TOO HOT (that is, "call for" heat
or cool), you use this information to override the signal from your
conventionally installed 4th/7th thermostat which is the Tstat that controls
the boiler most of the time.

Assuming for the moment that your boiler control consists in a 24VAC circuit
that needs to be completed with a SPST switch, and you have a conventional
thermostat with effectively a SPST switch like the Honeywell I describe in the
first paragraph above,

TstatTerm1 -- NC_TooHot_1 -+- NC_TooHot_2 -+- NC_TooHot_3 -+--- Boiler
| | |
NO_TooCold_1
|
NO_TooCold_2
|
NO_TooCold_3
|
TstatTerm2 ----------------+---------------+---------------+--- Boiler

where NC_TooHot_x are the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of a relay and
NO_TooCold_x are the Normally Open (NO) contacts of a relay.

So any closure of any NC_TooHot switch will turn off (override) the boiler
unless any of the NO_TooCold-x switches are closed. One can modify the
override logic by (eg) moving the location of the NO_TooCold_x switches to the
locations shown with the + .

Note that the circuit diagram above shows the control signal to the boiler,
not the signal from each SPST switch in each thermostat to each relay coil,
Right?

The relays themselves are powered by whatever voltage the relay coils that you
choose should happen to need (12vdc, 24VAC etc). One wrinkle is that the
anticipator circuit in the conventional thermostats described are designed for
24VAC so you might avoid complications by using 24VAC throughout -- but maybe
not, Depends on the thermostat chosen.

HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org


On 6 Dec 2006 20:14:47 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
message <1165464887.275804.321050@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:

>Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
>thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
>me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
>wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
>24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
>installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
>relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
>those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
>out for me?
>
>what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
>discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>
>thanks for the ideas!
>
>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>>
>> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
>> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated PC.
>>
>> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
>> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
>> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of the
>> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future zoned
>> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
>>
>> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment in
>> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I suggest
>> using CAT-5.
>>
>> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats.
>> You might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
>> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
>> thermostats.
>>
>> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum tolerable
>> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable low
>> temperature (say 66 F).
>>
>> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
>> location that you can access.
>>
>> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled contacts
>> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates a
>> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
>>
>> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
>> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
>> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
>>
>> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in series
>> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with the
>> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
>>
>> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of the
>> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE limits
>> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
>> located thermostat.
>>
>> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
>> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
>>
>> ... Marc
>> Marc_F_Hult
>> www.ECOntrol.org

[E. Lee Dickinson]

"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote:

>and tormenting your
> tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.

That's how I read this at first, too, untill I went back and re-read the
first post. Curently, there is a single thermostat in a tenant space
controlling the temperature for all three. "Lighthouse" is trying to install
something more equitable.

I would put in a damper system, in this case. This will give your tennants
the maximum amount of control in each of their spaces, without having to
install a seperate air handler for each. Install an electric damper in the
ducts leading to each apartment. The damper will be triggered in parallel
(probably via a 12v relay) with the boiler. Each tennant now has his own
thermostat which he can set to any temperatre he pleases. If the
boiler/blower is running, his duct will simply open when the room is too
cold. If it's not running, it will start up, open his duct, and warm the
place up.

Anyone who lives with someone else knows that different people have vastly
different temperature prefernces, and a few degrees either way can be
intolerably uncomfortable for some people. So this is a big deal, to me.

Electric dampers can be had on Ebay for around $80.

As for a maximum temperature setting, you could always just put some stop
screws or rivits in a conventional lever thermostat or put wireless temp
probes in the apartments with stiff contractual penalties if anyone lets
their apartments get too hot or too cold (expensive/freezing pipes).

[Lighthouse]

thanks for the idea Lee, but the system is hot water. as far as i know
there are no controls on hte indivdual baseboard radiators.


E. Lee Dickinson wrote:
> "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >and tormenting your
> > tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
>
> That's how I read this at first, too, untill I went back and re-read the
> first post. Curently, there is a single thermostat in a tenant space
> controlling the temperature for all three. "Lighthouse" is trying to install
> something more equitable.
>
> I would put in a damper system, in this case. This will give your tennants
> the maximum amount of control in each of their spaces, without having to
> install a seperate air handler for each. Install an electric damper in the
> ducts leading to each apartment. The damper will be triggered in parallel
> (probably via a 12v relay) with the boiler. Each tennant now has his own
> thermostat which he can set to any temperatre he pleases. If the
> boiler/blower is running, his duct will simply open when the room is too
> cold. If it's not running, it will start up, open his duct, and warm the
> place up.
>
> Anyone who lives with someone else knows that different people have vastly
> different temperature prefernces, and a few degrees either way can be
> intolerably uncomfortable for some people. So this is a big deal, to me.
>
> Electric dampers can be had on Ebay for around $80.
>
> As for a maximum temperature setting, you could always just put some stop
> screws or rivits in a conventional lever thermostat or put wireless temp
> probes in the apartments with stiff contractual penalties if anyone lets
> their apartments get too hot or too cold (expensive/freezing pipes).

[Marc_F_Hult]

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:13:01 -0500, "E. Lee Dickinson"
<lee@firstnamelastname.com> wrote in message <el9p9m$40u$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>:

>Anyone who lives with someone else knows that different people have vastly
>different temperature prefernces, and a few degrees either way can be
>intolerably uncomfortable for some people. So this is a big deal, to me.

What is "intolerable" depends on the circumstances ...

As a perennially broke grad student with wife and kids, I was caretaker of a
century-old, uninsulated, brick apartment building in Minnesota (three-story,
three entrances/addresses, 19 units) that was heated by a *single* steam
boiler using a single-pipe system with no useable valves.

It had _no_ thermostat. Control was via a manually adjusted timer with which I
could turn the boiler ON or OFF for any given 15-minute interval during 24
hours. So most nights after the weather report, I'd trundle down to the boiler
room to set each of the 96 little levers on the rotary dial of the timer,
turning more on if I guessed it would get colder and fewer if it was predicted
to get warmer -- typically with more set to ON during night and early morning
than afternoon.

'Course this was itself a fabulous improvement over the original when the
control consisted in shoveling and banking more or less coal ...

There was no way that all the tenants could be "satisfied". But nobody froze.

The owner lived in a basement apartment next to the boiler -- He was always
too hot (unless he was in jail ...) and I lived on the very far end of the
building -- six units and three entrances away -- and the building temperature
was 'best' if I was cold. Cycling the heat quickly so that the owner didn't
get too hot meant that the far end never received any heat at all because the
steam never arrived although the pipes clanked and the air vented from the
radiators.

We've gotten spoiled ;-) ... (and yes, it *was* much colder then, even in
Minnesota.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

[Marc_F_Hult]

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:13:01 -0500, "E. Lee Dickinson"
<lee@firstnamelastname.com> wrote in message <el9p9m$40u$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>:

>
>"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>and tormenting your
>> tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
>
>That's how I read this at first, too, untill I went back and re-read the
>first post. Curently, there is a single thermostat in a tenant space
>controlling the temperature for all three. "Lighthouse" is trying to install
>something more equitable.
>
>I would put in a damper system, in this case. This will give your tennants
>the maximum amount of control in each of their spaces, without having to
>install a seperate air handler for each. Install an electric damper in the
>ducts leading to each apartment. The damper will be triggered in parallel
>(probably via a 12v relay) with the boiler. Each tennant now has his own
>thermostat which he can set to any temperatre he pleases. If the
>boiler/blower is running, his duct will simply open when the room is too
>cold. If it's not running, it will start up, open his duct, and warm the
>place up.
>
>Anyone who lives with someone else knows that different people have vastly
>different temperature prefernces, and a few degrees either way can be
>intolerably uncomfortable for some people. So this is a big deal, to me.
>
>Electric dampers can be had on Ebay for around $80.
>
>As for a maximum temperature setting, you could always just put some stop
>screws or rivits in a conventional lever thermostat or put wireless temp
>probes in the apartments with stiff contractual penalties if anyone lets
>their apartments get too hot or too cold (expensive/freezing pipes).
>

Lighthouse has specified twice that he needs to control a _boiler_. Typically
that means radiators/baseboard heat without forced air. (But not always -- I
have a boiler-heated forced air system).

With a boiler + radiator (not forced air), none of the suggestions/options you
suggest would apply but absent more concrete info, we are jist guessing.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

[Marc_F_Hult]

To answer your last question first:

One could/can use simple inexpensive, traditional Honeywell thermostats that
have a bimetallic spring as the temperature sensor and a mercury (ugh :-( tilt
switch as the switching mechanism. But these have a manual COOL-OFF-HEAT
setting in part because you can only set the dial to one temperature, not two.
If there are inexpensive thermostats available that let you set two
temperatures (I dunno), that is, separate COOL ON and HEAT ON settings, they
might be adapted to your use. Okay so far?

Assuming that you have a thermostat arrangement (whether one or two physical
units) that complete two circuits with a Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST)
switches when the temperature is TOO COLD or TOO HOT (that is, "call for" heat
or cool), you use this information to override the signal from your
conventionally installed 4th/7th thermostat which is the Tstat that controls
the boiler most of the time.

Assuming for the moment that your boiler control consists in a 24VAC circuit
that needs to be completed with a SPST switch, and you have a conventional
thermostat with effectively a SPST switch like the Honeywell I describe in the
first paragraph above,

TstatTerm1 -- NC_TooHot_1 -+- NC_TooHot_2 -+- NC_TooHot_3 -+--- Boiler
| | |
NO_TooCold_1
|
NO_TooCold_2
|
NO_TooCold_3
|
TstatTerm2 ----------------+---------------+---------------+--- Boiler

where NC_TooHot_x are the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of a relay and
NO_TooCold_x are the Normally Open (NO) contacts of a relay.

So any closure of any NC_TooHot switch will turn off (override) the boiler
unless any of the NO_TooCold-x switches are closed. One can modify the
override logic by (eg) moving the location of the NO_TooCold_x switches to the
locations shown with the + .

Note that the circuit diagram above shows the control signal to the boiler,
not the signal from each SPST switch in each thermostat to each relay coil,
Right?

The relays themselves are powered by whatever voltage the relay coils that you
choose should happen to need (12vdc, 24VAC etc). One wrinkle is that the
anticipator circuit in the conventional thermostats described are designed for
24VAC so you might avoid complications by using 24VAC throughout -- but maybe
not, Depends on the thermostat chosen.

HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

On 6 Dec 2006 20:14:47 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
message <1165464887.275804.321050@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:

>Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
>thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
>me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
>wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
>24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
>installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
>relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
>those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
>out for me?
>
>what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
>discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>
>thanks for the ideas!
>
>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>>
>> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
>> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated PC.
>>
>> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
>> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
>> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of the
>> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future zoned
>> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
>>
>> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment in
>> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I suggest
>> using CAT-5.
>>
>> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats.
You
>> might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
>> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
>> thermostats.
>>
>> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum tolerable
>> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable low
>> temperature (say 66 F).
>>
>> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
>> location that you can access.
>>
>> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled contacts
>> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates a
>> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
>>
>> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
>> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
>> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
>>
>> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in series
>> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with the
>> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
>>
>> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of the
>> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE limits
>> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
>> located thermostat.
>>
>> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
>> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
>>
>> ... Marc
>> Marc_F_Hult
>> www.ECOntrol.org

[Bill Kearney]

> I would put in a damper system, in this case. This will give your tennants
> the maximum amount of control in each of their spaces, without having to
> install a seperate air handler for each. Install an electric damper in the
> ducts leading to each apartment

In reading the first post, boiler didn't make me think it was a forced air
setup.

> > thanks for the idea Lee, but the system is hot water. as far as i know
> > there are no controls on hte indivdual baseboard radiators.

Seems I was correct.

There is the big question of how the water pipes are laid out. If there's
any chance of controlling the actual water flow it'd allow much more
efficient control. But if it's an older residence chopped up into multiple
units that's unlikely. So you're back to Marc's idea of using relays and
high/low thresholds.

Another idea to consider is flow control on the radiators themselves.
Again, what sort of water system this uses has great impact on what's
possible/practical/safe. All of which is probabyl well outside the realm of
this particular newsgroup. I'd point you over to alt.hvac but that's a
cesspool (much like another one know to regulars around here).

Here's a thought, got a contractor supply place nearby? One that
specifically handles HVAC parts? Present the question to someone there and
see what range of solutions they come up with.

-Bill Kearney

[E. Lee Dickinson]

"Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote:

> thanks for the idea Lee, but the system is hot water. as far as i know
> there are no controls on hte indivdual baseboard radiators.

:scratches head: How on earth did I do that, and even write 'boiler' a
number of times in my post? The extent of my experience with hot water heat
is the in-floor radiant at my parent's house, and one time sitting on a
radiator and startling myself.

Now that I am free from any expectation of an intelligent post on the
subject, I will pontificate.

Solenoid valves in place of duct dampers? That would assume the apartment
systems are in parallel instead of series. Not likely, as Bill mentioned, in
a retrofit.

If they're curently in series, could a shunt to bypass the radiators be
possible? I doubt that unless they're ground floor with exposed basement.

What about just putting the thermostats in series? This would be the most
energy effecient -- coldest-set thermostat wins.

[Bill Kearney]

> don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
> going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.

Some folks might (or might not) consider that torment. We'll leave that to
other newsgroups. Now, I have to go burn out my eyes for even thinking of
that picture...

> i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
> power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
> thermostats w/o blowing anything up.

Oh yeah, that's confidence inspiring... (I'm kidding, of course)

Torment only from the perspective of putting something in place, rigging it
up so to speak, and have it end up being a pain in the ass to use, or that
it took forever to get "working". Tenants are a pain in the ass, but then
so are a lot of landlords. It's often best to use contractors in-between.
But hey, that's just a suggestion.

-Bill Kearney

[Lighthouse]

i should clarify my situation a bit. i should note that this building
isn't technically mine yet. it's scheduled to close in January. i'm
trying to be proactive and doing a little homework. the boilers are
relatively new--only about 6 years old. the radiators i *think* are on
a single pipe system (the building is over 100 years old and probably
had big-ass cast iron radiators originally). i really want to make the
place much more comfortable as i plan to move my own father into one of
the units. believe me, i don't plan to torment anyone. hahaha. there
are 6 units altogether w/ 2 boilers. one boiler heats 3 units on one
side of the building. the other boiler heats 3 units on the back side
of the building. 3 floors--2 units per floor. uninsulated brick
construction.

the current tenants are relatively comfortable right now. the problem
is that since ONE tenant controls the therm for 3 units, if he goes
away for the weekend or something and the temp changes drastically...
i'm sure you get the idea. obviously, the best solution would be to
refit the system so that each unit can control its temp independently
of the others. i will probably do that in about 2 years. i am in the
process of buying this building right now. it is my first commercial
building and i am putting ALL my cash on the line for the d/p'mt. i
really can't afford to bring in a heating expert this year to install
shunts, bypasses and thermostatically controlled valves. i'm looking
for a low cost, low tech temp solution that works. I hope that makes
the puzzle more clear. i appreciate all the views you guys are posting.





Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> To answer your last question first:
>
> One could/can use simple inexpensive, traditional Honeywell thermostats that
> have a bimetallic spring as the temperature sensor and a mercury (ugh :-( tilt
> switch as the switching mechanism. But these have a manual COOL-OFF-HEAT
> setting in part because you can only set the dial to one temperature, not two.
> If there are inexpensive thermostats available that let you set two
> temperatures (I dunno), that is, separate COOL ON and HEAT ON settings, they
> might be adapted to your use. Okay so far?
>
> Assuming that you have a thermostat arrangement (whether one or two physical
> units) that complete two circuits with a Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST)
> switches when the temperature is TOO COLD or TOO HOT (that is, "call for" heat
> or cool), you use this information to override the signal from your
> conventionally installed 4th/7th thermostat which is the Tstat that controls
> the boiler most of the time.
>
> Assuming for the moment that your boiler control consists in a 24VAC circuit
> that needs to be completed with a SPST switch, and you have a conventional
> thermostat with effectively a SPST switch like the Honeywell I describe in the
> first paragraph above,
>
> TstatTerm1 -- NC_TooHot_1 -+- NC_TooHot_2 -+- NC_TooHot_3 -+--- Boiler
> | | |
> NO_TooCold_1
> |
> NO_TooCold_2
> |
> NO_TooCold_3
> |
> TstatTerm2 ----------------+---------------+---------------+--- Boiler
>
> where NC_TooHot_x are the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of a relay and
> NO_TooCold_x are the Normally Open (NO) contacts of a relay.
>
> So any closure of any NC_TooHot switch will turn off (override) the boiler
> unless any of the NO_TooCold-x switches are closed. One can modify the
> override logic by (eg) moving the location of the NO_TooCold_x switches to the
> locations shown with the + .
>
> Note that the circuit diagram above shows the control signal to the boiler,
> not the signal from each SPST switch in each thermostat to each relay coil,
> Right?
>
> The relays themselves are powered by whatever voltage the relay coils that you
> choose should happen to need (12vdc, 24VAC etc). One wrinkle is that the
> anticipator circuit in the conventional thermostats described are designed for
> 24VAC so you might avoid complications by using 24VAC throughout -- but maybe
> not, Depends on the thermostat chosen.
>
> HTH ... Marc
> Marc_F_Hult
> www.ECOntrol.org
>
> On 6 Dec 2006 20:14:47 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
> message <1165464887.275804.321050@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:
>
> >Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
> >thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
> >me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
> >wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
> >24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
> >installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
> >relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
> >those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
> >out for me?
> >
> >what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
> >discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
> >inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
> >
> >thanks for the ideas!
> >
> >Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> >>
> >> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
> >> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated PC.
> >>
> >> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
> >> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
> >> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of the
> >> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future zoned
> >> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
> >>
> >> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment in
> >> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I suggest
> >> using CAT-5.
> >>
> >> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats.
> You
> >> might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
> >> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
> >> thermostats.
> >>
> >> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum tolerable
> >> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable low
> >> temperature (say 66 F).
> >>
> >> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
> >> location that you can access.
> >>
> >> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled contacts
> >> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates a
> >> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
> >>
> >> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
> >> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
> >> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
> >>
> >> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in series
> >> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with the
> >> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
> >>
> >> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of the
> >> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE limits
> >> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
> >> located thermostat.
> >>
> >> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
> >> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
> >>
> >> ... Marc
> >> Marc_F_Hult
> >> www.ECOntrol.org

[Marc_F_Hult]

Lighthouse,

You need to find out what you are buying. Single-pipe steam systems (steams
moves out a single pipe, condenses to water in the radiator, and flows back to
the boiler via the same pipe) are a whole lot different that hot water
systems. Do the radiators have a vent that allows air to escape when the heat
goes on? If so, is most likely steam (and I commiserate).


....Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

On 8 Dec 2006 07:28:15 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
message <1165591695.608049.295350@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>:

>i should clarify my situation a bit. i should note that this building
>isn't technically mine yet. it's scheduled to close in January. i'm
>trying to be proactive and doing a little homework. the boilers are
>relatively new--only about 6 years old. the radiators i *think* are on
>a single pipe system (the building is over 100 years old and probably
>had big-ass cast iron radiators originally). i really want to make the
>place much more comfortable as i plan to move my own father into one of
>the units. believe me, i don't plan to torment anyone. hahaha. there
>are 6 units altogether w/ 2 boilers. one boiler heats 3 units on one
>side of the building. the other boiler heats 3 units on the back side
>of the building. 3 floors--2 units per floor. uninsulated brick
>construction.
>
>the current tenants are relatively comfortable right now. the problem
>is that since ONE tenant controls the therm for 3 units, if he goes
>away for the weekend or something and the temp changes drastically...
>i'm sure you get the idea. obviously, the best solution would be to
>refit the system so that each unit can control its temp independently
>of the others. i will probably do that in about 2 years. i am in the
>process of buying this building right now. it is my first commercial
>building and i am putting ALL my cash on the line for the d/p'mt. i
>really can't afford to bring in a heating expert this year to install
>shunts, bypasses and thermostatically controlled valves. i'm looking
>for a low cost, low tech temp solution that works. I hope that makes
>the puzzle more clear. i appreciate all the views you guys are posting.
>
>
>
>
>
>Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>> To answer your last question first:
>>
>> One could/can use simple inexpensive, traditional Honeywell thermostats
that
>> have a bimetallic spring as the temperature sensor and a mercury (ugh :-(
tilt
>> switch as the switching mechanism. But these have a manual COOL-OFF-HEAT
>> setting in part because you can only set the dial to one temperature, not
two.
>> If there are inexpensive thermostats available that let you set two
>> temperatures (I dunno), that is, separate COOL ON and HEAT ON settings,
they
>> might be adapted to your use. Okay so far?
>>
>> Assuming that you have a thermostat arrangement (whether one or two
physical
>> units) that complete two circuits with a Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST)
>> switches when the temperature is TOO COLD or TOO HOT (that is, "call for"
heat
>> or cool), you use this information to override the signal from your
>> conventionally installed 4th/7th thermostat which is the Tstat that
controls
>> the boiler most of the time.
>>
>> Assuming for the moment that your boiler control consists in a 24VAC
circuit
>> that needs to be completed with a SPST switch, and you have a conventional
>> thermostat with effectively a SPST switch like the Honeywell I describe in
the
>> first paragraph above,
>>
>> TstatTerm1 -- NC_TooHot_1 -+- NC_TooHot_2 -+- NC_TooHot_3 -+--- Boiler
>> | | |
>> NO_TooCold_1
>> |
>> NO_TooCold_2
>> |
>> NO_TooCold_3
>> |
>> TstatTerm2 ----------------+---------------+---------------+--- Boiler
>>
>> where NC_TooHot_x are the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of a relay and
>> NO_TooCold_x are the Normally Open (NO) contacts of a relay.
>>
>> So any closure of any NC_TooHot switch will turn off (override) the boiler
>> unless any of the NO_TooCold-x switches are closed. One can modify the
>> override logic by (eg) moving the location of the NO_TooCold_x switches to
the
>> locations shown with the + .
>>
>> Note that the circuit diagram above shows the control signal to the boiler,
>> not the signal from each SPST switch in each thermostat to each relay coil,
>> Right?
>>
>> The relays themselves are powered by whatever voltage the relay coils that
you
>> choose should happen to need (12vdc, 24VAC etc). One wrinkle is that the
>> anticipator circuit in the conventional thermostats described are designed
for
>> 24VAC so you might avoid complications by using 24VAC throughout -- but
maybe
>> not, Depends on the thermostat chosen.
>>
>> HTH ... Marc
>> Marc_F_Hult
>> www.ECOntrol.org
>>
>> On 6 Dec 2006 20:14:47 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote
in
>> message <1165464887.275804.321050@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:
>>
>> >Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
>> >thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
>> >me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
>> >wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
>> >24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
>> >installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
>> >relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
>> >those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
>> >out for me?
>> >
>> >what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
>> >discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
>> >inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>> >
>> >thanks for the ideas!
>> >
>> >Marc_F_Hult wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
>> >> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated
PC.
>> >>
>> >> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
>> >> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
>> >> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of
the
>> >> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future
zoned
>> >> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
>> >>
>> >> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment
in
>> >> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I
suggest
>> >> using CAT-5.
>> >>
>> >> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats.
>> You
>> >> might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
>> >> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
>> >> thermostats.
>> >>
>> >> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum
tolerable
>> >> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable
low
>> >> temperature (say 66 F).
>> >>
>> >> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
>> >> location that you can access.
>> >>
>> >> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled
contacts
>> >> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates
a
>> >> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
>> >>
>> >> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
>> >> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
>> >> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
>> >>
>> >> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in
series
>> >> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with
the
>> >> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
>> >>
>> >> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of
the
>> >> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE
limits
>> >> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
>> >> located thermostat.
>> >>
>> >> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
>> >> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
>> >>
>> >> ... Marc
>> >> Marc_F_Hult
>> >> www.ECOntrol.org

[Lighthouse]

Marc, i honestly am not sure now. many homes and buildings in this area
were originally heated w/ steam. in this building, i noted that the
living spaces all have the newer baseboard type radiators that i think
are called "slant-fin". i honestly don't know if they are making use of
hotwater or steam. one unit in the building has an old fashioned iron
radiator--the kind i associate w/ steam. it is small and only heats an
office space. when i was in the units they seemed to be warm and
comfortable and i didn't hear any water hammer when the inspector i
hired turned the thermostat up to observe the operation. at the time i
didn't think to ask many questions about the system other than to be
sure it worked adequately.

Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> Lighthouse,
>
> You need to find out what you are buying. Single-pipe steam systems (steams
> moves out a single pipe, condenses to water in the radiator, and flows back to
> the boiler via the same pipe) are a whole lot different that hot water
> systems. Do the radiators have a vent that allows air to escape when the heat
> goes on? If so, is most likely steam (and I commiserate).
>
>
> ...Marc
> Marc_F_Hult
> www.ECOntrol.org
>
> On 8 Dec 2006 07:28:15 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
> message <1165591695.608049.295350@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>:
>
> >i should clarify my situation a bit. i should note that this building
> >isn't technically mine yet. it's scheduled to close in January. i'm
> >trying to be proactive and doing a little homework. the boilers are
> >relatively new--only about 6 years old. the radiators i *think* are on
> >a single pipe system (the building is over 100 years old and probably
> >had big-ass cast iron radiators originally). i really want to make the
> >place much more comfortable as i plan to move my own father into one of
> >the units. believe me, i don't plan to torment anyone. hahaha. there
> >are 6 units altogether w/ 2 boilers. one boiler heats 3 units on one
> >side of the building. the other boiler heats 3 units on the back side
> >of the building. 3 floors--2 units per floor. uninsulated brick
> >construction.
> >
> >the current tenants are relatively comfortable right now. the problem
> >is that since ONE tenant controls the therm for 3 units, if he goes
> >away for the weekend or something and the temp changes drastically...
> >i'm sure you get the idea. obviously, the best solution would be to
> >refit the system so that each unit can control its temp independently
> >of the others. i will probably do that in about 2 years. i am in the
> >process of buying this building right now. it is my first commercial
> >building and i am putting ALL my cash on the line for the d/p'mt. i
> >really can't afford to bring in a heating expert this year to install
> >shunts, bypasses and thermostatically controlled valves. i'm looking
> >for a low cost, low tech temp solution that works. I hope that makes
> >the puzzle more clear. i appreciate all the views you guys are posting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> >> To answer your last question first:
> >>
> >> One could/can use simple inexpensive, traditional Honeywell thermostats
> that
> >> have a bimetallic spring as the temperature sensor and a mercury (ugh :-(
> tilt
> >> switch as the switching mechanism. But these have a manual COOL-OFF-HEAT
> >> setting in part because you can only set the dial to one temperature, not
> two.
> >> If there are inexpensive thermostats available that let you set two
> >> temperatures (I dunno), that is, separate COOL ON and HEAT ON settings,
> they
> >> might be adapted to your use. Okay so far?
> >>
> >> Assuming that you have a thermostat arrangement (whether one or two
> physical
> >> units) that complete two circuits with a Single-Pole, Single-Throw (SPST)
> >> switches when the temperature is TOO COLD or TOO HOT (that is, "call for"
> heat
> >> or cool), you use this information to override the signal from your
> >> conventionally installed 4th/7th thermostat which is the Tstat that
> controls
> >> the boiler most of the time.
> >>
> >> Assuming for the moment that your boiler control consists in a 24VAC
> circuit
> >> that needs to be completed with a SPST switch, and you have a conventional
> >> thermostat with effectively a SPST switch like the Honeywell I describe in
> the
> >> first paragraph above,
> >>
> >> TstatTerm1 -- NC_TooHot_1 -+- NC_TooHot_2 -+- NC_TooHot_3 -+--- Boiler
> >> | | |
> >> NO_TooCold_1
> >> |
> >> NO_TooCold_2
> >> |
> >> NO_TooCold_3
> >> |
> >> TstatTerm2 ----------------+---------------+---------------+--- Boiler
> >>
> >> where NC_TooHot_x are the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of a relay and
> >> NO_TooCold_x are the Normally Open (NO) contacts of a relay.
> >>
> >> So any closure of any NC_TooHot switch will turn off (override) the boiler
> >> unless any of the NO_TooCold-x switches are closed. One can modify the
> >> override logic by (eg) moving the location of the NO_TooCold_x switches to
> the
> >> locations shown with the + .
> >>
> >> Note that the circuit diagram above shows the control signal to the boiler,
> >> not the signal from each SPST switch in each thermostat to each relay coil,
> >> Right?
> >>
> >> The relays themselves are powered by whatever voltage the relay coils that
> you
> >> choose should happen to need (12vdc, 24VAC etc). One wrinkle is that the
> >> anticipator circuit in the conventional thermostats described are designed
> for
> >> 24VAC so you might avoid complications by using 24VAC throughout -- but
> maybe
> >> not, Depends on the thermostat chosen.
> >>
> >> HTH ... Marc
> >> Marc_F_Hult
> >> www.ECOntrol.org
> >>
> >> On 6 Dec 2006 20:14:47 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote
> in
> >> message <1165464887.275804.321050@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:
> >>
> >> >Marc, this sounds pretty close to what i want to do. not the Aprilaire
> >> >thing (way outta my budget), but the other. hope you don't mind helping
> >> >me out w/ a few of the details. ok, conventional therms, cat5, serial
> >> >wiring, parallel wiring. i'm down w/ all that. i'm not sure about the
> >> >24V xformer and the relays. i'm assuming that both of those get
> >> >installed in the boiler room along w/ my 7th therm. what kind of
> >> >relays? is the 24v xformr the kind used in doorbell circuits? how do
> >> >those fit into the wiring scheme? is it possible for you to sketch this
> >> >out for me?
> >> >
> >> >what would be the difference w/ using an AUTO therm instead? as for
> >> >discouraging tampering w/ the settings i could possibly camo the therms
> >> >inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
> >> >
> >> >thanks for the ideas!
> >> >
> >> >Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I would do this with three (or four) communicating Aprilaire 8870
> >> >> thermostats and Homeseer software running 24x7 on a low power dedicated
> PC.
> >> >>
> >> >> But here's a solution that doesn't use a PC, is extremely reliable,
> >> >> presumably inexpensive compared to your energy bill, could be installed
> >> >> and(or) serviced by any competent HVAC serviceman, does not look out of
> the
> >> >> ordinary to the occupants, could be incorporated as part of a future
> zoned
> >> >> system, and requires no custom programming, PICs, soldering etc:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) Install two inexpensive, conventional thermostats in each apartment
> in
> >> >> no-tamper (fat chance! ;-) enclosures. Thermostat wire is OK but I
> suggest
> >> >> using CAT-5.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2) You'll need 24VAC transformers and relays as well as the thermostats.
> >> You
> >> >> might also find a low-cost thermostat with an AUTO setting (not manual
> >> >> Cool-Off-Heat as is conventional) that could replace each pair of
> >> >> thermostats.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3) In each apartment, set one thermostat to COOL with the maximum
> tolerable
> >> >> high temperature (say 76 F), and one to HEAT at the maximum tolerable
> low
> >> >> temperature (say 66 F).
> >> >>
> >> >> 4) Install a seventh (!) thermostat in a centrally located ('average')
> >> >> location that you can access.
> >> >>
> >> >> 5) Use each of the COOL outputs to energize a relay the controlled
> contacts
> >> >> of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This creates
> a
> >> >> logical OR to force a TOO COLD OVERRIDE.
> >> >>
> >> >> 6) Use each of the three HEAT outputs to energize a relay the controlled
> >> >> contacts of which are wired in parallel fashion with the other two. This
> >> >> creates a logical OR to force a TOO HOT OVERRIDE.
> >> >>
> >> >> 7) Control the boiler with centrally located thermostat's output in
> series
> >> >> with the TOO HOT OVERRIDE (TOO HOT opens circuit) and in parallel with
> the
> >> >> TOO COLD OVERRIDE (TOO COLD completes circuit).
> >> >>
> >> >> This creates a system in which the building w/should not exceed any of
> the
> >> >> six independently set table TOO COLD OVERRIDE and TOO HOT ORERRIDE
> limits
> >> >> and between those limits is controlled conventionally by the centrally
> >> >> located thermostat.
> >> >>
> >> >> As implied earlier, the fly in the ointment is the concept of a
> >> >> "tamper-proof" thermostat enclosure.
> >> >>
> >> >> ... Marc
> >> >> Marc_F_Hult
> >> >> www.ECOntrol.org

[B Fuhrmann]

>i should clarify my situation a bit. i should note that this building
> isn't technically mine yet. it's scheduled to close in January. i'm
> trying to be proactive and doing a little homework. the boilers are

As Marc said, you really need to find out what the system is, and how it is
plumbed.

Then I would ask a knowledgeable serviceman/contractor/supplier (may also
be how you find out what it is) to see if something easy can be done. It is
possible that this is something relatively common and they have an obvious
fix for it.
Without the proper knowledge and experience, the people here could end up
with something unnecessarily Rube Goldbergish in spite of the collective
knowledge.

--
Bill Fuhrmann

[Frank Olson]

Robert L Bass wrote:
>>Robert thanks, but i'm not sure ~how~ to do that.
>
>
> I'll have to ask tech support at my thermoistat supplier.


Let me get this straight. You volunteer a solution but can't provide
it. Sheesh!

[Jim Baber]

Jim Baber wrote:
Your tenants will undoubtedly complain when their adjustments to the
thermostats within their unit don't have the effect they wanted
because some other thermostat overrode their changes....

I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....

And if there was ever a fire and your non standard HVAC controls were
found, even if they were not at fault themselves, I am sure the
insurance company would consider that as sufficient reason to disallow
ALL claims against them for any damages. The insurance companies do
love to find any reason to avoid paying any claims.

Lighthouse wrote:
> don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
> going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.
> i'm not installing high voltage security fencing in the living units.
> i'm looking to replace an existing thermostat. i won't do anything
> unless i understand it completely. that's why i asked for some
> additional clarification. i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
> power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
> thermostats w/o blowing anything up.
>
>
> Bill Kearney wrote:
>
>>>i could possibly camo the therms
>>>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>>
>>Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
>>risks, right?
>>
>>Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
>>that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
>>tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
>>
>>When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems like
>>that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of the
>>tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.
>>
>>-Bill Kearney
>
>

[Robert Green]

"Jim Baber" <jim@baber.org> wrote in message
news:beGdnTStC84jlh7YnZ2dnUVZ_ruknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Jim Baber wrote:
> Your tenants will undoubtedly complain when their adjustments to the
> thermostats within their unit don't have the effect they wanted
> because some other thermostat overrode their changes....

Agreed. Also, almost any remote thermostat can be gamed. In an office I
worked in, I shone a floor lamp on the thermostat when I wanted it cooler
and hit it with a blast of canned air upside down when I wanted it warmer.
Didn't matter that the thermostat was in a big, allegedly tamper-proof box.
A well-bent paper clip worked wonders as well

--
Bobby G.

[Bill Kearney]

> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....

Heh, this is where programmable theromstats are handy. I've specifically
added some set-back events timed to execute about a half-hour after the wife
is known to fiddle with the thermostat. Works wonders. She'd come home and
crank down the AC, in a half-hour the event would reset it to a more
reasonable setting. Saved considerably in the marital bliss department.

If/when thermostats and the like get real bidirectional feedback it'd be
great. It'd be great to have a CPU balance between outside ambient
temperature, day/night sun conditions, occupancy and preset programming
definitions. As in, detect that someone's fiddled with the thermostat, let
them "get away with it" for a short while and resume settings as desired
while being intelligent about it. Until then, ah well.

[Marc_F_Hult]

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:20:05 -0500, "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com>
wrote in message <J92dnRXm97C7_RjYnZ2dnUVZ_segnZ2d@speakeasy.net>:

>> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....
>
>Heh, this is where programmable theromstats are handy. I've specifically
>added some set-back events timed to execute about a half-hour after the wife
>is known to fiddle with the thermostat. Works wonders. She'd come home and
>crank down the AC, in a half-hour the event would reset it to a more
>reasonable setting. Saved considerably in the marital bliss department.
>
>If/when thermostats and the like get real bidirectional feedback it'd be
>great. It'd be great to have a CPU balance between outside ambient
>temperature, day/night sun conditions, occupancy and preset programming
>definitions. As in, detect that someone's fiddled with the thermostat, let
>them "get away with it" for a short while and resume settings as desired
>while being intelligent about it. Until then, ah well.

Thermostats that can do what you want have been available for at least a dozen
years. My experience is with Aprilaire 8870 and its precursors ( formerly
Enerzone /Statnet). They use RS-485 and a simple ASCII command set that can
be sent from the command line, a terminal program, a VB program and is
natively supported in Homerseer, CQC, CyberHouse, Premise Systems (now
Motorola and defunct -- a free and presumably legal download described here:
www.premisesystems.info).


The Aprilaire/Enerzone/Statnet command set can be used to query or set
multiple single or multi-stage heat + cool thermostats, temperature or
humidity sensors, dampers or other devices on the RS-485 line. There's enough
capacity for expansion left in the command set and bandwidth that it would be
a good candidate for a homebrew RS-485 control system with other functionality
in my opinion.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

[Robert L Bass]

>> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....
>
> Heh, this is where programmable theromstats are handy. I've specifically
> added some set-back events timed to execute about a half-hour after the wife
> is known to fiddle with the thermostat. Works wonders. She'd come home and
> crank down the AC, in a half-hour the event would reset it to a more
> reasonable setting. Saved considerably in the marital bliss department.

That is one of the "primary directives" for my HA system. My sweetheart is an angel. However, she's totally non-technical and I
cannot get her to understand that setting the thermostat for 78F will not make the house heat up faster. She envisions the system
as though there's a flame that gets bigger when you adjust the thermostat upwards, similar to turning the gas up on the range.

My plan is to use analog temperature sensors in each zone and let the ELK M1G control the HVAC. I'll leave the existing stats
powered up so she can fiddle with them but they won't control anything. :^)

> If/when thermostats and the like get real bidirectional feedback it'd be
> great. It'd be great to have a CPU balance between outside ambient
> temperature, day/night sun conditions, occupancy and preset programming
> definitions. As in, detect that someone's fiddled with the thermostat, let
> them "get away with it" for a short while and resume settings as desired
> while being intelligent about it. Until then, ah well.

This can be done using existing hardware. Connect the stats to your HA system. If someone sets the stat higher than the current
setting, throw a relay allowing the stat to control the HVAC system for 30 minutes and then release the relay.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-866-1100
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[B Fuhrmann]

> My plan is to use analog temperature sensors in each zone and let the ELK
> M1G control the HVAC. I'll leave the existing stats powered up so she can
> fiddle with them but they won't control anything. :^)

I think that this one is likely to backfire. Lots of "it must be broken, I
tuned it down twice and it never came on."

> This can be done using existing hardware. Connect the stats to your HA
> system. If someone sets the stat higher than the current setting, throw a
> relay allowing the stat to control the HVAC system for 30 minutes and then
> release the relay.

That's more likely to work. The system comes on and psychologically it
feels cooler.

[Lighthouse]

you forget that 2 out of 3 tenants currently have no control over the
temp at all. they rely on one tenant who has the thermostat in his unit
to set it at a reasonable temp. My thought was to really have temp
monitors in all the units and have a central thermostat (available to
me) to keep the units warmer than say 68, but no hotter than 72.


Jim Baber wrote:
> Jim Baber wrote:
> Your tenants will undoubtedly complain when their adjustments to the
> thermostats within their unit don't have the effect they wanted
> because some other thermostat overrode their changes....
>
> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....
>
> And if there was ever a fire and your non standard HVAC controls were
> found, even if they were not at fault themselves, I am sure the
> insurance company would consider that as sufficient reason to disallow
> ALL claims against them for any damages. The insurance companies do
> love to find any reason to avoid paying any claims.
>
> Lighthouse wrote:
> > don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
> > going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.
> > i'm not installing high voltage security fencing in the living units.
> > i'm looking to replace an existing thermostat. i won't do anything
> > unless i understand it completely. that's why i asked for some
> > additional clarification. i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
> > power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
> > thermostats w/o blowing anything up.
> >
> >
> > Bill Kearney wrote:
> >
> >>>i could possibly camo the therms
> >>>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
> >>
> >>Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
> >>risks, right?
> >>
> >>Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
> >>that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
> >>tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
> >>
> >>When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems like
> >>that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of the
> >>tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.
> >>
> >>-Bill Kearney
> >
> >

[Marc_F_Hult]

You might get the thermostats to implement the practical solution I suggested
in an earlier post for as little as about $35.

See
http://home.listings.ebay.com/Heating-Cooling-Air_Thermostats_W0QQfc
lZ3QQfromZR11QQsacatZ115947QQsocmdZListingItemList

in general and specifically:
http://cgi.ebay.com/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250060361945#ShippingPayment

This solution recognizes that your only actual control choice is ON or OFF.

Consider adding a way to sense the position of the relays and 1) log them so
that you know what is 'normal' and what is extreme and 2) send you email/other
notification if one or more of the TooHot or TooCold conditions is triggered.

.... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org

On 18 Dec 2006 08:36:20 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
message <1166459779.843638.234070@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:

>you forget that 2 out of 3 tenants currently have no control over the
>temp at all. they rely on one tenant who has the thermostat in his unit
>to set it at a reasonable temp. My thought was to really have temp
>monitors in all the units and have a central thermostat (available to
>me) to keep the units warmer than say 68, but no hotter than 72.
>
>
>Jim Baber wrote:
>> Jim Baber wrote:
>> Your tenants will undoubtedly complain when their adjustments to the
>> thermostats within their unit don't have the effect they wanted
>> because some other thermostat overrode their changes....
>>
>> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....
>>
>> And if there was ever a fire and your non standard HVAC controls were
>> found, even if they were not at fault themselves, I am sure the
>> insurance company would consider that as sufficient reason to disallow
>> ALL claims against them for any damages. The insurance companies do
>> love to find any reason to avoid paying any claims.
>>
>> Lighthouse wrote:
>> > don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
>> > going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.
>> > i'm not installing high voltage security fencing in the living units.
>> > i'm looking to replace an existing thermostat. i won't do anything
>> > unless i understand it completely. that's why i asked for some
>> > additional clarification. i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
>> > power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
>> > thermostats w/o blowing anything up.
>> >
>> >
>> > Bill Kearney wrote:
>> >
>> >>>i could possibly camo the therms
>> >>>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
>> >>
>> >>Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
>> >>risks, right?
>> >>
>> >>Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
>> >>that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
>> >>tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
>> >>
>> >>When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems
like
>> >>that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of
the
>> >>tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.
>> >>
>> >>-Bill Kearney
>> >
>> >

[Lighthouse]

thanks, marc. i'll look at that more closely.


Marc_F_Hult wrote:
> You might get the thermostats to implement the practical solution I suggested
> in an earlier post for as little as about $35.
>
> See
> http://home.listings.ebay.com/Heating-Cooling-Air_Thermostats_W0QQfc
> lZ3QQfromZR11QQsacatZ115947QQsocmdZListingItemList
>
> in general and specifically:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250060361945#ShippingPayment
>
> This solution recognizes that your only actual control choice is ON or OFF.
>
> Consider adding a way to sense the position of the relays and 1) log them so
> that you know what is 'normal' and what is extreme and 2) send you email/other
> notification if one or more of the TooHot or TooCold conditions is triggered.
>
> ... Marc
> Marc_F_Hult
> www.ECOntrol.org
>
> On 18 Dec 2006 08:36:20 -0800, "Lighthouse" <gruntledlark@gmail.com> wrote in
> message <1166459779.843638.234070@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:
>
> >you forget that 2 out of 3 tenants currently have no control over the
> >temp at all. they rely on one tenant who has the thermostat in his unit
> >to set it at a reasonable temp. My thought was to really have temp
> >monitors in all the units and have a central thermostat (available to
> >me) to keep the units warmer than say 68, but no hotter than 72.
> >
> >
> >Jim Baber wrote:
> >> Jim Baber wrote:
> >> Your tenants will undoubtedly complain when their adjustments to the
> >> thermostats within their unit don't have the effect they wanted
> >> because some other thermostat overrode their changes....
> >>
> >> I can't even get my wife to agree how to set the thermostat....
> >>
> >> And if there was ever a fire and your non standard HVAC controls were
> >> found, even if they were not at fault themselves, I am sure the
> >> insurance company would consider that as sufficient reason to disallow
> >> ALL claims against them for any damages. The insurance companies do
> >> love to find any reason to avoid paying any claims.
> >>
> >> Lighthouse wrote:
> >> > don't know how this would be "tormenting" my tenants. it's not like i'm
> >> > going to have them wear panties on their heads while i install this.
> >> > i'm not installing high voltage security fencing in the living units.
> >> > i'm looking to replace an existing thermostat. i won't do anything
> >> > unless i understand it completely. that's why i asked for some
> >> > additional clarification. i used to build, test, and operate nuclear
> >> > power plants so i'm pretty confident that i can wire up a few
> >> > thermostats w/o blowing anything up.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bill Kearney wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>>i could possibly camo the therms
> >> >>>inside the casing of a smoke alarm unit.
> >> >>
> >> >>Realizing the problems with the electrical code and possible insurance
> >> >>risks, right?
> >> >>
> >> >>Honestly, for rental units you're asking for trouble with dumb ideas like
> >> >>that. Likewise, cobbling together some sort of hack, and tormenting your
> >> >>tenants in the process, really doesn't seem like a good idea.
> >> >>
> >> >>When I suggested a contractor it was intended to avoid various problems
> like
> >> >>that. Installations that follow code, professional time spent in/out of
> the
> >> >>tenant space, avoiding risks to existing boiler gear, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >>-Bill Kearney
> >> >
> >> >