fluorescent bulbs + x10

[pshaw@emmet.com]

i've recently put some 100w fluorescent bulbs in my bedside lamps and
switched the x10 'lamp' module to a 'machinery' module ...and i can
turn the lamps off with the remote - then they flicker for a few
minutes and then turn on again! i have other lamps around the house
where this is not a problem. i do have an inexpensive switch
mechanism in the lamps (i took some vases and made them into lamps)
....could that be the problem?

tia ... steve

[Robert Green]

[re: CFL lamps turning themselves back on after a few seconds]

> i do have an inexpensive switch mechanism in the lamps (i took
> some vases and made them into lamps) ..could that be the problem?

Nope - it's the newer CFL lightbulbs. They are able to relight themselves
via the trickle current used by the module to sense when someone jiggles the
local on switch (aka local control).

Two ways out: Put a small nightlight or other load on the module along with
the CFL to absorb the trickle current or look up:

"X10 appliance mod local control current sense diode snip"

in Google . . .

(oh, heck, here it is:)

http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm

and follow the instructions.

Downside is that either method makes it impossible to turn on the lamp by
using the lamp's built-in switch. May or may not be a problem for you.

I found that using the power supply to my Creative PC speakers worked nicely
to suppress the lamp's relighting although I'd really like the CHA gurus to
figure out a way to do it without sacrificing local control. Certain
fixtures and bulbs don't suffer from the problem but my experience indicates
that more and more fluorescents fixtures of both the 48" striplite and the
spiral CFL kind are likely to relight themselves. :-(

IIRC, I read where someone had taken a module apart, stuck it in the lamp,
did the diode snip and then wired a pushbutton style lamp switch on the lamp
itself so that it triggered the module via the low voltage circuitry.

That way you have local control, but the lamp doesn't come back on by itself
because the current sensing diode is snipped. Don't ask we *where* you tie
the lamp switch in on the module or where I read it. The last time CFL's
flashing back on bothered me I did a Google search and vaguely remember
seeing the details. I think you tie in where the X-10 three-way traveler
normally connects but again, you need to search to be sure.

--
Bobby G.

<pshaw@emmet.com> wrote in message
news:rb9pa2tmtqol3rhmp2hofcpakkobgtnlcf@4ax.com...
> i've recently put some 100w fluorescent bulbs in my bedside lamps and
> switched the x10 'lamp' module to a 'machinery' module ...and i can
> turn the lamps off with the remote - then they flicker for a few
> minutes and then turn on again! i have other lamps around the house
> where this is not a problem. i do have an inexpensive switch
> mechanism in the lamps (i took some vases and made them into lamps)
> ...could that be the problem?
>
> tia ... steve

[pshaw@emmet.com]

thanks ...that seems to be spot on ... strange that this doesn't
happen with other lamps but it may be because i'm using 50-100-150
bulbs in them and they already have a 'trickle' current absorber ...

i may just use the mechanical switch on the lamp, as it is next to the
bedside :-) ...

do any of the other remote systems - z whatever for example, work
better?

thanks again ... steve

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 02:51:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
<ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote:

>[re: CFL lamps turning themselves back on after a few seconds]
>
>> i do have an inexpensive switch mechanism in the lamps (i took
>> some vases and made them into lamps) ..could that be the problem?
>
>Nope - it's the newer CFL lightbulbs. They are able to relight themselves
>via the trickle current used by the module to sense when someone jiggles the
>local on switch (aka local control).
>
>Two ways out: Put a small nightlight or other load on the module along with
>the CFL to absorb the trickle current or look up:
>
> "X10 appliance mod local control current sense diode snip"
>
>in Google . . .
>
>(oh, heck, here it is:)
>
>http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm
>
>and follow the instructions.
>
>Downside is that either method makes it impossible to turn on the lamp by
>using the lamp's built-in switch. May or may not be a problem for you.
>
>I found that using the power supply to my Creative PC speakers worked nicely
>to suppress the lamp's relighting although I'd really like the CHA gurus to
>figure out a way to do it without sacrificing local control. Certain
>fixtures and bulbs don't suffer from the problem but my experience indicates
>that more and more fluorescents fixtures of both the 48" striplite and the
>spiral CFL kind are likely to relight themselves. :-(
>
>IIRC, I read where someone had taken a module apart, stuck it in the lamp,
>did the diode snip and then wired a pushbutton style lamp switch on the lamp
>itself so that it triggered the module via the low voltage circuitry.
>
>That way you have local control, but the lamp doesn't come back on by itself
>because the current sensing diode is snipped. Don't ask we *where* you tie
>the lamp switch in on the module or where I read it. The last time CFL's
>flashing back on bothered me I did a Google search and vaguely remember
>seeing the details. I think you tie in where the X-10 three-way traveler
>normally connects but again, you need to search to be sure.

[Robert Green]

<pshaw@emmet.com> wrote in message
news:cpsra25frcha3am9ealvvh04kkqt7rj0nl@4ax.com...
> thanks ...that seems to be spot on ... strange that this doesn't
> happen with other lamps but it may be because i'm using 50-100-150
> bulbs in them and they already have a 'trickle' current absorber ...

Compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) have sophisticated electronics built into
their bases that interact (badly) with X-10 control circuitry. Ironically
the brand new GE CFL bulbs I bought last week from Wal-mart exhibit an
annoying number of bright flashes after they've been turned off remotely.
The batch I bought two months ago behaved just fine. Obviously, the lamp
designs are still evolving.

> i may just use the mechanical switch on the lamp, as it is next to the
> bedside :-) ...

Then go for it. CFL's and X-10 do not mix well. X-10'ers should probably
be barraging lamp manufacturers to address the problem. When I return these
bulbs, I'll hopefully be casting a vote for X-10 friendliness.

> do any of the other remote systems - z whatever for example, work
> better?

Work differently. Better is in the eye of the beholder. If a remote system
doesn't interact with the load, the chances are greater that it will
tolerate CFL bulbs without incident. X-10 has so much trouble with
fluorescents because it's trying to be "helpful" in sensing whether anyone's
jiggled the lamp's built-in switch. It was a great idea when the world was
lit with mostly incandescent lamps. Still, I'd rather have the option.
X-10 modules need a "local sense ON/OFF" slide switch to help cope with the
CFL issue.

> thanks again ... steve

Good luck!

--
Bobby G.

>
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 02:51:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>
> >[re: CFL lamps turning themselves back on after a few seconds]
> >
> >> i do have an inexpensive switch mechanism in the lamps (i took
> >> some vases and made them into lamps) ..could that be the problem?
> >
> >Nope - it's the newer CFL lightbulbs. They are able to relight
themselves
> >via the trickle current used by the module to sense when someone jiggles
the
> >local on switch (aka local control).
> >
> >Two ways out: Put a small nightlight or other load on the module along
with
> >the CFL to absorb the trickle current or look up:
> >
> > "X10 appliance mod local control current sense diode snip"
> >
> >in Google . . .
> >
> >(oh, heck, here it is:)
> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm
> >
> >and follow the instructions.
> >
> >Downside is that either method makes it impossible to turn on the lamp by
> >using the lamp's built-in switch. May or may not be a problem for you.
> >
> >I found that using the power supply to my Creative PC speakers worked
nicely
> >to suppress the lamp's relighting although I'd really like the CHA gurus
to
> >figure out a way to do it without sacrificing local control. Certain
> >fixtures and bulbs don't suffer from the problem but my experience
indicates
> >that more and more fluorescents fixtures of both the 48" striplite and
the
> >spiral CFL kind are likely to relight themselves. :-(
> >
> >IIRC, I read where someone had taken a module apart, stuck it in the
lamp,
> >did the diode snip and then wired a pushbutton style lamp switch on the
lamp
> >itself so that it triggered the module via the low voltage circuitry.
> >
> >That way you have local control, but the lamp doesn't come back on by
itself
> >because the current sensing diode is snipped. Don't ask we *where* you
tie
> >the lamp switch in on the module or where I read it. The last time CFL's
> >flashing back on bothered me I did a Google search and vaguely remember
> >seeing the details. I think you tie in where the X-10 three-way traveler
> >normally connects but again, you need to search to be sure.
>

[jr9@reganfamily.ca]

I have found 'Globe' (globe-electric.com) brand CFLs work really well with
X10.

They don't have the problem with the annoying flicker when turned off,
they don't automatically come back on again, and they even have
one that is dimmable and it works well with the X10 lamp modules.



Jeff

> <pshaw@emmet.com> wrote in message
> news:cpsra25frcha3am9ealvvh04kkqt7rj0nl@4ax.com...
>> thanks ...that seems to be spot on ... strange that this doesn't
>> happen with other lamps but it may be because i'm using 50-100-150
>> bulbs in them and they already have a 'trickle' current absorber ...
>
> Compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) have sophisticated electronics built into
> their bases that interact (badly) with X-10 control circuitry. Ironically
> the brand new GE CFL bulbs I bought last week from Wal-mart exhibit an
> annoying number of bright flashes after they've been turned off remotely.
> The batch I bought two months ago behaved just fine. Obviously, the lamp
> designs are still evolving.
>
>> i may just use the mechanical switch on the lamp, as it is next to the
>> bedside :-) ...
>
> Then go for it. CFL's and X-10 do not mix well. X-10'ers should probably
> be barraging lamp manufacturers to address the problem. When I return these
> bulbs, I'll hopefully be casting a vote for X-10 friendliness.
>
>> do any of the other remote systems - z whatever for example, work
>> better?
>
> Work differently. Better is in the eye of the beholder. If a remote system
> doesn't interact with the load, the chances are greater that it will
> tolerate CFL bulbs without incident. X-10 has so much trouble with
> fluorescents because it's trying to be "helpful" in sensing whether anyone's
> jiggled the lamp's built-in switch. It was a great idea when the world was
> lit with mostly incandescent lamps. Still, I'd rather have the option.
> X-10 modules need a "local sense ON/OFF" slide switch to help cope with the
> CFL issue.
>
>> thanks again ... steve
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> Bobby G.
>
>>
>> On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 02:51:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
>> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>>
>>> [re: CFL lamps turning themselves back on after a few seconds]
>>>
>>>> i do have an inexpensive switch mechanism in the lamps (i took
>>>> some vases and made them into lamps) ..could that be the problem?
>>>
>>> Nope - it's the newer CFL lightbulbs. They are able to relight
> themselves
>>> via the trickle current used by the module to sense when someone jiggles
> the
>>> local on switch (aka local control).
>>>
>>> Two ways out: Put a small nightlight or other load on the module along
> with
>>> the CFL to absorb the trickle current or look up:
>>>
>>> "X10 appliance mod local control current sense diode snip"
>>>
>>> in Google . . .
>>>
>>> (oh, heck, here it is:)
>>>
>>> http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm
>>>
>>> and follow the instructions.
>>>
>>> Downside is that either method makes it impossible to turn on the lamp by
>>> using the lamp's built-in switch. May or may not be a problem for you.
>>>
>>> I found that using the power supply to my Creative PC speakers worked
> nicely
>>> to suppress the lamp's relighting although I'd really like the CHA gurus
> to
>>> figure out a way to do it without sacrificing local control. Certain
>>> fixtures and bulbs don't suffer from the problem but my experience
> indicates
>>> that more and more fluorescents fixtures of both the 48" striplite and
> the
>>> spiral CFL kind are likely to relight themselves. :-(
>>>
>>> IIRC, I read where someone had taken a module apart, stuck it in the
> lamp,
>>> did the diode snip and then wired a pushbutton style lamp switch on the
> lamp
>>> itself so that it triggered the module via the low voltage circuitry.
>>>
>>> That way you have local control, but the lamp doesn't come back on by
> itself
>>> because the current sensing diode is snipped. Don't ask we *where* you
> tie
>>> the lamp switch in on the module or where I read it. The last time CFL's
>>> flashing back on bothered me I did a Google search and vaguely remember
>>> seeing the details. I think you tie in where the X-10 three-way traveler
>>> normally connects but again, you need to search to be sure.
>>
>
>
>

[pshaw@emmet.com]

okey dokey i'll order some from then ...

thanks! :-) ...

steve

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 22:56:10 -0400, jr9@reganfamily.ca wrote:

>I have found 'Globe' (globe-electric.com) brand CFLs work really well with
>X10.
>
>They don't have the problem with the annoying flicker when turned off,
>they don't automatically come back on again, and they even have
>one that is dimmable and it works well with the X10 lamp modules.
>
>
>
>Jeff
>
>> <pshaw@emmet.com> wrote in message
>> news:cpsra25frcha3am9ealvvh04kkqt7rj0nl@4ax.com...
>>> thanks ...that seems to be spot on ... strange that this doesn't
>>> happen with other lamps but it may be because i'm using 50-100-150
>>> bulbs in them and they already have a 'trickle' current absorber ...
>>
>> Compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) have sophisticated electronics built into
>> their bases that interact (badly) with X-10 control circuitry. Ironically
>> the brand new GE CFL bulbs I bought last week from Wal-mart exhibit an
>> annoying number of bright flashes after they've been turned off remotely.
>> The batch I bought two months ago behaved just fine. Obviously, the lamp
>> designs are still evolving.
>>
>>> i may just use the mechanical switch on the lamp, as it is next to the
>>> bedside :-) ...
>>
>> Then go for it. CFL's and X-10 do not mix well. X-10'ers should probably
>> be barraging lamp manufacturers to address the problem. When I return these
>> bulbs, I'll hopefully be casting a vote for X-10 friendliness.
>>
>>> do any of the other remote systems - z whatever for example, work
>>> better?
>>
>> Work differently. Better is in the eye of the beholder. If a remote system
>> doesn't interact with the load, the chances are greater that it will
>> tolerate CFL bulbs without incident. X-10 has so much trouble with
>> fluorescents because it's trying to be "helpful" in sensing whether anyone's
>> jiggled the lamp's built-in switch. It was a great idea when the world was
>> lit with mostly incandescent lamps. Still, I'd rather have the option.
>> X-10 modules need a "local sense ON/OFF" slide switch to help cope with the
>> CFL issue.
>>
>>> thanks again ... steve
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> --
>> Bobby G.
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 02:51:01 -0400, "Robert Green"
>>> <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [re: CFL lamps turning themselves back on after a few seconds]
>>>>
>>>>> i do have an inexpensive switch mechanism in the lamps (i took
>>>>> some vases and made them into lamps) ..could that be the problem?
>>>>
>>>> Nope - it's the newer CFL lightbulbs. They are able to relight
>> themselves
>>>> via the trickle current used by the module to sense when someone jiggles
>> the
>>>> local on switch (aka local control).
>>>>
>>>> Two ways out: Put a small nightlight or other load on the module along
>> with
>>>> the CFL to absorb the trickle current or look up:
>>>>
>>>> "X10 appliance mod local control current sense diode snip"
>>>>
>>>> in Google . . .
>>>>
>>>> (oh, heck, here it is:)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm
>>>>
>>>> and follow the instructions.
>>>>
>>>> Downside is that either method makes it impossible to turn on the lamp by
>>>> using the lamp's built-in switch. May or may not be a problem for you.
>>>>
>>>> I found that using the power supply to my Creative PC speakers worked
>> nicely
>>>> to suppress the lamp's relighting although I'd really like the CHA gurus
>> to
>>>> figure out a way to do it without sacrificing local control. Certain
>>>> fixtures and bulbs don't suffer from the problem but my experience
>> indicates
>>>> that more and more fluorescents fixtures of both the 48" striplite and
>> the
>>>> spiral CFL kind are likely to relight themselves. :-(
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, I read where someone had taken a module apart, stuck it in the
>> lamp,
>>>> did the diode snip and then wired a pushbutton style lamp switch on the
>> lamp
>>>> itself so that it triggered the module via the low voltage circuitry.
>>>>
>>>> That way you have local control, but the lamp doesn't come back on by
>> itself
>>>> because the current sensing diode is snipped. Don't ask we *where* you
>> tie
>>>> the lamp switch in on the module or where I read it. The last time CFL's
>>>> flashing back on bothered me I did a Google search and vaguely remember
>>>> seeing the details. I think you tie in where the X-10 three-way traveler
>>>> normally connects but again, you need to search to be sure.
>>>
>>
>>
>>

[Bill Stock]

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
news:UcOdnau0MPJkODPZnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@rcn.net...

[snip]

> Then go for it. CFL's and X-10 do not mix well. X-10'ers should probably
> be barraging lamp manufacturers to address the problem. When I return
> these
> bulbs, I'll hopefully be casting a vote for X-10 friendliness.

I was just going to ask about this. I'm surprised after all this time, that
they haven't built a better CFL bulb.

I've got one socket rocket that has not worked for almost a year, but I've
been too lazy to do any serious investigation. Although I'm pretty sure it's
the CFLs in the outside lights. Changing brands did not solve the problem.
The last couple of nights the lights on one aquarium would not go off, so
I've been turning them off with the remote when I go to bed. But tonight
this did not work. After a little head scratching I realized that the CFL
table lamp was still turned on. Turing off this lamp solved the problem. The
strange thing is that this lamp did not bother the aquarium lights in the
past! Do these things generate more noise with age?

[dicko]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 23:51:31 -0400, "Bill Stock" <me7@privacy.net>
wrote:

>
>"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
>news:UcOdnau0MPJkODPZnZ2dnUVZ_rqdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Then go for it. CFL's and X-10 do not mix well. X-10'ers should probably
>> be barraging lamp manufacturers to address the problem. When I return
>> these
>> bulbs, I'll hopefully be casting a vote for X-10 friendliness.
>
>I was just going to ask about this. I'm surprised after all this time, that
>they haven't built a better CFL bulb.
>
>I've got one socket rocket that has not worked for almost a year, but I've
>been too lazy to do any serious investigation. Although I'm pretty sure it's
>the CFLs in the outside lights. Changing brands did not solve the problem.
>The last couple of nights the lights on one aquarium would not go off, so
>I've been turning them off with the remote when I go to bed. But tonight
>this did not work. After a little head scratching I realized that the CFL
>table lamp was still turned on. Turing off this lamp solved the problem. The
>strange thing is that this lamp did not bother the aquarium lights in the
>past! Do these things generate more noise with age?
>
>
>
It's not tht they generate noise, it's that they suck the X-10 signal
down to nothingness. There's usually a big ol' capacitor right across
the line in each CFL to keep noise off the line. Of course this
attenuates any X-10 signals that happen to be present.

dickm

[Robert Green]

"Bill Stock" <me7@privacy.net> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> I was just going to ask about this. I'm surprised after all this time,
that
> they haven't built a better CFL bulb.

I think they are trying but they are optimizing for qualities that are not
X-10 friendly. I assume each new generation of CFLs produces a little more
light per watt than the last and costs a little bit less to make. I also
think that they are trying to reduce the noise which leads them to put
capacitors across the AC line and do all sorts of other things that kill
noise - and to a lighting engineer, X-10 is noise.

> I've got one socket rocket that has not worked for almost a year, but I've
> been too lazy to do any serious investigation. Although I'm pretty sure
it's
> the CFLs in the outside lights. Changing brands did not solve the problem.
> The last couple of nights the lights on one aquarium would not go off, so
> I've been turning them off with the remote when I go to bed. But tonight
> this did not work. After a little head scratching I realized that the CFL
> table lamp was still turned on. Turing off this lamp solved the problem.
The
> strange thing is that this lamp did not bother the aquarium lights in the
> past! Do these things generate more noise with age?

Our houses are really very dynamic when it comes to the wiring "network."
It took a long time for me to figure out that the occasional noise I was
seeing in one area only occured when the UPS was in its charge cycle.
Anything nearby like a power supply for a laptop or a UPS could cause the
signal to degrade.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"dicko" <drwho@universalclock.com> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> It's not tht they generate noise, it's that they suck the X-10 signal
> down to nothingness. There's usually a big ol' capacitor right across
> the line in each CFL to keep noise off the line. Of course this
> attenuates any X-10 signals that happen to be present.

They generate both noise and "suckiness" if my Monterey is to be believed.
About 50mV seems to be standard.

From what I can determine, the CFL *may* not absorb the X-10 signal to the
extent that it won't turn on, but once it's turned on, the bulb generates
local noise equivalent to the strength of the now severely attentuated X-10
signal and the X-10 switch controlling it goes "deaf" - at least to signals
from far away.

Their are two clues that point to this being the case. One is that the bulb
switches on, but not off, remotely. The second is that bulb may turn off
remotely if the controller is very close to the load and putting out enough
voltage to overcome both the CFL's "suck" factor and noise output.

--
Bobby G.

[Jeff Volp]

"Robert Green" <ROBERT_GREEN1963@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
news:3fCdne9YrNES7SzZnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@rcn.net...

> <more stuff snipped>
>
> From what I can determine, the CFL *may* not absorb the X-10 signal to the
> extent that it won't turn on, but once it's turned on, the bulb generates
> local noise equivalent to the strength of the now severely attentuated
X-10
> signal and the X-10 switch controlling it goes "deaf" - at least to
signals
> from far away.
>
> Their are two clues that point to this being the case. One is that the
bulb
> switches on, but not off, remotely. The second is that bulb may turn off
> remotely if the controller is very close to the load and putting out
enough
> voltage to overcome both the CFL's "suck" factor and noise output.

We had one CF light that would miss its off signal maybe once a month. But
it has not missed since the first XTB prototype was brought on line back in
April.

An inexpensive fix that has always worked for me is to add a Miller 5252 125
mH hash choke in the hot lead somewhere between the plug and the bulb.
Often there is room in the base of the lamp. Be sure to insulate well with
shrink sleeving. It's rated 3.5A, so there is no concern about replacing
the CF with an incandescent in the future.

Jeff