5.1 without rear speakers?

[Cyrus]

In article <uEzKd.3430$wA5.23@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
"tw" <t@w.com> wrote:

> What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
> speakers? I'd like to upgrade my sound as much as I can from just the TV
> speakers but there limitations to my room configuration. I don't have any
> walls or tables or floor space that lends itself to rear speakers. I'd like
> to use two floor standing speakers and a center speaker without a subwoofer.
> I'd use the system primarily for music but it doesn't need to be top of the
> line since my ears are somewhat shot anyway. Any recommendations for
> equipment like an A/V recv. or speakers. Any comments on pro's and con's.
>
> Thanks.
>
> TW
>
>
>

If you've got a ceiling towards the rear, you can hang surrounds from
there. Technically its not correct, but its better than nothing.

But why? If this is for primarily 2 channel music. Multichannel music
setup is a different story and you might as well go the whole nine if
this is the case. Movies still sound good in stereo, better than tv
speakers but not as good as surround.

I recommend a sub in either scenario, any type of consumer floor
standing speaker will not reproduce the sub-bass region very well.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

[tw]

What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
speakers? I'd like to upgrade my sound as much as I can from just the TV
speakers but there limitations to my room configuration. I don't have any
walls or tables or floor space that lends itself to rear speakers. I'd like
to use two floor standing speakers and a center speaker without a subwoofer.
I'd use the system primarily for music but it doesn't need to be top of the
line since my ears are somewhat shot anyway. Any recommendations for
equipment like an A/V recv. or speakers. Any comments on pro's and con's.

Thanks.

TW

[tw]

Thanks to everyone. That's exactly what I needed.


"tw" <t@w.com> wrote in message
news:uEzKd.3430$wA5.23@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com. ..
> What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
> speakers? I'd like to upgrade my sound as much as I can from just the TV
> speakers but there limitations to my room configuration. I don't have any
> walls or tables or floor space that lends itself to rear speakers. I'd
like
> to use two floor standing speakers and a center speaker without a
subwoofer.
> I'd use the system primarily for music but it doesn't need to be top of
the
> line since my ears are somewhat shot anyway. Any recommendations for
> equipment like an A/V recv. or speakers. Any comments on pro's and con's.
>
> Thanks.
>
> TW
>
>
>

[Lunaray]

Well you might be right Lucas, maybe I should've spent a little more time
calibrating everything, but it's not like it really wasn't working as it
should, it just reminded me of sitting in a huge theater with sound all
around me, staring at a tiny little screen! Maybe I'll give it another
chance!

[Lucas Tam]

"Lunaray" <yarNOT@easystreet.com> wrote in
news:10vlvia4pdpfkdb@corp.supernews.com:

> Maybe it's just me, but I had a very elaborate 5.1 system set up and it
> would shake the walls & rattle the windows

Did you calibrate your sound system? Sounds like you were blasting the bass
: )

--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

[Neill Massello]

tw <t@w.com> wrote:

> What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
> speakers?

Just about all 5.1 receivers can mix the surround channels into the
front speaker channels if you tell them you have no surround speakers.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:11:22 GMT, "tw" <t@w.com> wrote:

>What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
>speakers? I'd like to upgrade my sound as much as I can from just the TV
>speakers but there limitations to my room configuration. I don't have any
>walls or tables or floor space that lends itself to rear speakers. I'd like
>to use two floor standing speakers and a center speaker without a subwoofer.
>I'd use the system primarily for music but it doesn't need to be top of the
>line since my ears are somewhat shot anyway. Any recommendations for
>equipment like an A/V recv. or speakers. Any comments on pro's and con's.

From your story, I do not know why you are considering 5.1 at all.
Why not just get a decent stereo system for music and plug the TV
audio into one of the auxiliary intputs?

Kal

[Lunaray]

Maybe it's just me, but I had a very elaborate 5.1 system set up and it
would shake the walls & rattle the windows and I guess it sounded great, but
it way overshadowed my little 27" Sony TV to the point where it seemed
ridiculous, so I disconnected the subwoofer & the rear speakers and
everything seems much more balanced with just left, right, & center! Now if
I ever win the lottery and can afford a huge plasma screen, maybe I'll
reconsider the sound!

[Severian]

"Lunaray" <yarNOT@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:10vlvia4pdpfkdb@corp.supernews.com...
> Maybe it's just me, but I had a very elaborate 5.1 system set up and it
> would shake the walls & rattle the windows and I guess it sounded great,
but
> it way overshadowed my little 27" Sony TV to the point where it seemed
> ridiculous, so I disconnected the subwoofer & the rear speakers and
> everything seems much more balanced with just left, right, & center! Now
if
> I ever win the lottery and can afford a huge plasma screen, maybe I'll
> reconsider the sound!
>
>

That's refered to as cognitive dissonance, I know what you mean. Surround
sound can take your mind off the small image, but if it's too grandiose it
can also seem kind of jarring if the screen is really small. There's a happy
medium there somewhere, different for different people, you've found yours.
Unless I'm really watching a big spectacular, I often only run the front 3
speakers, with some surround info mixed into L and R, and find it nicely
rewarding and not distracting. Definitely good for regular TV.

[Lucas Tam]

"Lunaray" <yarNOT@easystreet.com> wrote in
news:10vmam0dmm1fs97@corp.supernews.com:

> Well you might be right Lucas, maybe I should've spent a little more
> time calibrating everything, but it's not like it really wasn't
> working as it should, it just reminded me of sitting in a huge theater
> with sound all around me, staring at a tiny little screen! Maybe I'll
> give it another chance!

Try picking up a copy of AVIA Guide to Home Theater and a Radio Shack sound
meter. Calibrate the speakers and see if they sound any better.

Also, you can run your speakers at a lower volume too. Depending on your
receiver model these sound levels may vary, but some people run their home
theaters at -20db, while others prefer -30db for smaller rooms.

--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

[Uptown Audio]

Absolutely; that's what I do and run a shop that sells home theater
gear as well...
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:phjlv0lh9dv47sgramvljitr7snp9oa3f5@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:11:22 GMT, "tw" <t@w.com> wrote:
>
>>What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
>>speakers? I'd like to upgrade my sound as much as I can from just
>>the TV
>>speakers but there limitations to my room configuration. I don't
>>have any
>>walls or tables or floor space that lends itself to rear speakers.
>>I'd like
>>to use two floor standing speakers and a center speaker without a
>>subwoofer.
>>I'd use the system primarily for music but it doesn't need to be top
>>of the
>>line since my ears are somewhat shot anyway. Any recommendations
>>for
>>equipment like an A/V recv. or speakers. Any comments on pro's and
>>con's.
>
> From your story, I do not know why you are considering 5.1 at all.
> Why not just get a decent stereo system for music and plug the TV
> audio into one of the auxiliary intputs?
>
> Kal
>

[Clams Canino]

I'm facing a similar but different issue as the 5.1 without rear feller.

I'm building from scratch but I have *on hand* 4 Peavey 12/10 H's which is a
"full range" tower speaker consisting of a 12" speaker, with a 10" speaker
over that, topped with a duel horn. In addition, I have 2 Peavey 115H's
whichs a "full range" speaker consisting of a single 15" driver and the same
duel horn. Lastly I have a Peavey floor "full range" floor monitor that has
a 12" speaker and the same old duel horn.

So I have 7 speakers for 7.1 but no sub-woofer. I'm wondering if I even
need a sub woofer with those monsters?

I'm thinking of using the pair of 115's as left right front, the 4 12/10's
and the two sides and L/R back. and the floor monitor (wall mounted) as the
center channel.

What I'm wondering is how to tell the reciever to F the subwoofer and send
the deep base info to the 115's in the LR front position??

I'm also wondering if I'll be able to turn all this heavey metal shit down
enough to get a good sound in a 12x15 room? I mean,the 4 towers alone can
put music over my 2 acre property when I have a pool party. I need to drive
them without them taking the house apart. :)

-W

[L Alpert]

Clams Canino wrote:
> I'm facing a similar but different issue as the 5.1 without rear
> feller.
>
> I'm building from scratch but I have *on hand* 4 Peavey 12/10 H's
> which is a "full range" tower speaker consisting of a 12" speaker,
> with a 10" speaker over that, topped with a duel horn. In addition, I
> have 2 Peavey 115H's whichs a "full range" speaker consisting of a
> single 15" driver and the same duel horn. Lastly I have a Peavey
> floor "full range" floor monitor that has a 12" speaker and the same
> old duel horn.
>
> So I have 7 speakers for 7.1 but no sub-woofer. I'm wondering if I
> even need a sub woofer with those monsters?
>
> I'm thinking of using the pair of 115's as left right front, the 4
> 12/10's and the two sides and L/R back. and the floor monitor (wall
> mounted) as the center channel.
>
> What I'm wondering is how to tell the reciever to F the subwoofer and
> send the deep base info to the 115's in the LR front position??

Their frequency response still may not be low enough (many larger fronts low
end may be in the 60-40hz range or so, a decent SW will go down to 20-25hz,
hence the "Sub" designation). Most frequency crossovers are at 90-100hz.

As well, it takes a lot of power to drive a passive woofer at the lower
ranges, and may cause the receiver to clip (shut down).

I am not familiar with your specific set up, and I am by no means an expert.
I can only tell you about my own experiences.

I ran without a sub with my first system for awhile, as my old Cerwin Vega
fronts (circa 1980's vintage) had 12" woofers in them, as I put the system
together piece-meal and had to wait for the sub to arrive from the ebay
seller. The higher outputs with a lot of base would shut down the receiver,
and the sound was much more enjoyable with the sub attached.

>
> I'm also wondering if I'll be able to turn all this heavey metal shit
> down enough to get a good sound in a 12x15 room? I mean,the 4 towers
> alone can put music over my 2 acre property when I have a pool party.
> I need to drive them without them taking the house apart. :)
>
> -W

[ThePetPage]

>> What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
>> speakers?

Hi,

I run without a sub and have don't plan on buying one. I dont feel "I" need it.
I went the Home Theater route so I could HEAR the dialog. I found that the only
way I could listen to TV was keep turning it up when they were talking and
turning it down when they played music or special effects.

It nice to hear that stuff, but...not if I gotta go thru all that. What a
Center Channel does, is basically play the dialog! Perfect for me. The rear
speakers only have certain effects. I went to Tweeter and sat thru a demo and
the ONLY thing I could hear out of the rears (5.1, not 7.1) was a very few
squeals and squeaks. The receivers will aim that up front if you tell it you
dont have rears.

As far as the sub goes, the sales people think I'm crazy but my system sounds
just fine "to me" without a sub. If I was interested in "wowing" my friends or
whatever, a sub would probably be necessary, but I'm not. Look at it this way,
when I lisen to music, my bass is set right in the center, proving my speakers
can deliver (Infinity Studio Monitors).

The ONLY problem I see with my setup is, my Pioneer Stero had a "loudness"
control which boosted the bass at low volume settings. The Home Theater
receivers DO NOT. I miss that and my consider building an external circuit.

Hope that helps, John

[Cyrus]

In article <20050130192813.06070.00000305@mb-m20.aol.com>,
thepetpage@aol.com (ThePetPage) wrote:

> >> What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
> >> speakers?
>
> Hi,
>
> I run without a sub and have don't plan on buying one. I dont feel "I" need
> it.
> I went the Home Theater route so I could HEAR the dialog. I found that the
> only
> way I could listen to TV was keep turning it up when they were talking and
> turning it down when they played music or special effects.
>
> It nice to hear that stuff, but...not if I gotta go thru all that. What a
> Center Channel does, is basically play the dialog! Perfect for me. The rear
> speakers only have certain effects. I went to Tweeter and sat thru a demo and
> the ONLY thing I could hear out of the rears (5.1, not 7.1) was a very few
> squeals and squeaks. The receivers will aim that up front if you tell it you
> dont have rears.
>
> As far as the sub goes, the sales people think I'm crazy but my system sounds
> just fine "to me" without a sub. If I was interested in "wowing" my friends
> or
> whatever, a sub would probably be necessary, but I'm not. Look at it this
> way,
> when I lisen to music, my bass is set right in the center, proving my
> speakers
> can deliver (Infinity Studio Monitors).
>

Normally the use of a sub is to fill out the bottom part of the audio
spectrum. Some do use them to 'wow' others, but don't pile people into
the same category just because you aren't a part of it.

> The ONLY problem I see with my setup is, my Pioneer Stero had a "loudness"
> control which boosted the bass at low volume settings. The Home Theater
> receivers DO NOT. I miss that and my consider building an external circuit.

Your need for a loudness function in your receiver just says that your
fronts can't deliver. Many main speakers just can not deliver sub-bass
information, especially those that are mass produced.

>
> Hope that helps, John

hth,

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

[Lucas Tam]

thepetpage@aol.com (ThePetPage) wrote in
news:20050130192813.06070.00000305@mb-m20.aol.com:

> I run without a sub and have don't plan on buying one. I dont feel "I"
> need it. I went the Home Theater route so I could HEAR the dialog. I
> found that the only way I could listen to TV was keep turning it up
> when they were talking and turning it down when they played music or
> special effects.

I think you had your sub set too high ; ) If you calibrate your sub
correctly, it shouldn't muffle the dialog. Another possibilty is that your
cross over is set too high. Perhaps you prefer a 50 - 60hz cross over
instead of the standard 70-80hz.

> The ONLY problem I see with my setup is, my Pioneer Stero had a
> "loudness" control which boosted the bass at low volume settings. The
> Home Theater receivers DO NOT.

I'm pretty sure the loudness feature is still on the newest Pioneer A/V
receivers.

--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/

[Fleabus]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:34:26 GMT, "Clams Canino"
<nowayhose@nospam.net> wrote:

>I'm facing a similar but different issue as the 5.1 without rear feller.
>
>I'm building from scratch but I have *on hand* 4 Peavey 12/10 H's which is a
>"full range" tower speaker consisting of a 12" speaker, with a 10" speaker
>over that, topped with a duel horn. In addition, I have 2 Peavey 115H's
>whichs a "full range" speaker consisting of a single 15" driver and the same
>duel horn. Lastly I have a Peavey floor "full range" floor monitor that has
>a 12" speaker and the same old duel horn.
>
>So I have 7 speakers for 7.1 but no sub-woofer. I'm wondering if I even
>need a sub woofer with those monsters?
>
>I'm thinking of using the pair of 115's as left right front, the 4 12/10's
>and the two sides and L/R back. and the floor monitor (wall mounted) as the
>center channel.
>
>What I'm wondering is how to tell the reciever to F the subwoofer and send
>the deep base info to the 115's in the LR front position??
>
>I'm also wondering if I'll be able to turn all this heavey metal shit down
>enough to get a good sound in a 12x15 room? I mean,the 4 towers alone can
>put music over my 2 acre property when I have a pool party. I need to drive
>them without them taking the house apart. :)
>
>-W
>
>
>

Clams:

Relevant parts of audio sytem:

Receiver: Denon AVR-3802 7x110W DD/DTS ES/ DPL II

Speakers: Fronts - Cerwin-Vega! DX-9 (4-8 ohm)
1 x 15"; 2 x 6"; 1 x 1"
Sensitivity 102dB (1W @1m)
Power Handling: 400W

Centre - Paradigm CC-200 (6 ohm)
2 x 5 1/2"; 1 x 3/4"
Sensitivity: 92dB (1W @1m)

Side Surrounds - Cerwin-Vega! E-Series2 E-712
1 x 12"; 1 x 5 ¼"; dome tweeter.
Sensitivity 98dB (2.83V/ 1m)
Power Handling: 300W

Rear Surrounds - Cerwin-Vega! R-26 (4-8 ohm)
1 x 12"; 1 x 2.5"
Sensitivity: 96dB (1W @1m)

I feel no need to use a sub.
For deep bass in music I have some classical church organ CDs that
I've also heard on other systems with subs.
Ditto for that original black Enya disc with the very deep and
sustained digital keyboards.
My system gets everything "down there" very nicely.
For movies my house vibrates when it is supposed to :P

I'm not familiar with Peavy speakers other than noticing them used for
musical instruments. They are likely highly efficient and would not
need much power to be very loud.

Setup your system and try to get an A/V store saleman drop by for a
demo of a sub.
Listen for yourself.

Happy trails,

A 5.1 systerm by its nature uses five speakers and a sub.
for instance, a two wheel car isnt a car, its a motercycle
"Neill Massello" <neillmassello@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gr3y4u.k00h3byotigwN%neillmassello@earthlink .net...
> tw <t@w.com> wrote:
>
> > What is the effect of setting up a 5.1 system without using any rear
> > speakers?
>
> Just about all 5.1 receivers can mix the surround channels into the
> front speaker channels if you tell them you have no surround speakers.
>

[neilnewsgroups@hotmail.com]

Or had the rear channels turned up too loud. The rear channels should
be at very low volume and provide a subtle effect most of the time.

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 21 Feb 2005 14:23:26 -0800, neilnewsgroups@hotmail.com wrote:

>Or had the rear channels turned up too loud. The rear channels should
>be at very low volume and provide a subtle effect most of the time.

That should be under program control and the system settings should
have the rears at the same level as the fronts.

Kal

[neilnewsgroups@hotmail.com]

Lucas Tam wrote:
> thepetpage@aol.com (ThePetPage) wrote in
> news:20050130192813.06070.00000305@mb-m20.aol.com:
>
> > I run without a sub and have don't plan on buying one. I dont feel
"I"
> > need it. I went the Home Theater route so I could HEAR the dialog.
I
> > found that the only way I could listen to TV was keep turning it up
> > when they were talking and turning it down when they played music
or
> > special effects.

Does your receiver have a "Late Night Mode" mode (the Onkyo name for
their version of the mode) or something like that? That mode will tame
the wide range in volume so that the dialog isn't so quiet and the
special effects aren't so loud. Modes like this are designed so that
when you're listening at night and other members of your household and
neighbors are sleeping, you won't have the problem with the wide range
of volume that you describe.

> I think you had your sub set too high ; )

Also possible. Or problems with the room's acoustics, bad speakers, or
bad audio recording on the DVD.

>If you calibrate your sub
> correctly, it shouldn't muffle the dialog. Another possibilty is that
your
> cross over is set too high. Perhaps you prefer a 50 - 60hz cross over

> instead of the standard 70-80hz.
>
> > The ONLY problem I see with my setup is, my Pioneer Stero had a
> > "loudness" control which boosted the bass at low volume settings.
The
> > Home Theater receivers DO NOT.
>
> I'm pretty sure the loudness feature is still on the newest Pioneer
A/V
> receivers.
>
> --
> Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
> Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
> http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/