5.1 Sound - Standard vs "Cinema" mode

[David L. Jones]

While playing around with placement and setup of my 5.1 speakers I
found it makes a dramatic difference when I select the various "Cinema"
studio modes on my Sony receiver.
The difference is really remarkable, the "cinema" mode (not
surprisingly I guess) sounds like a real cinema, the sound really comes
alive with a great "presence". Dialog and other sounds effects are
enhanced too, to what I expect from the cinema.

I really haven't played much with these modes before because I thought
they were a bit "fake" and designed to enhance movies that don't have
such effects to begin with.
So up until now I have using "standard" un-enhanced 5.1 mode thinking
that I was getting the best and most original surround effect on modern
movies that make extensive use of surround effects. But this normal
mode really has been quite "flat" sounding, with not much presence, and
really quite different to what I remember hearing in the cinema. Even
the dialog doesn't seem to have the right presence.

Even the wife can hear the difference, and went "wow, the movie sounds
like it's supposed to now", and that's saying something!

As you can guess, I'm petty taken by this cinema mode, and am going to
leave it on. But I guess I have a few questions:

1) Am I being "sucked in" by the extra effects added by the cinema
mode?, or are you supposed to use "cinema" mode with 5.1 receivers?
2) Should "standard" un-enhanced 5.1 mode be the best to use in
theory?, and if so, any idea why it sounds so utterly boring and "flat"
on my system?
3) How many others use this "cinema" mode as well?

Comments?

Dave :)

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1150022953.009699.105640@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> While playing around with placement and setup of my 5.1 speakers I
> found it makes a dramatic difference when I select the various "Cinema"
> studio modes on my Sony receiver.

Well, it's like turning on Winamp's bass+treble modes: music sounds way
better than what the MP3 would normally sound like. So yeah, if cinema
mode makes 5.1 better for you, then of course go with it! :)

I too have a Sony amp and might look into this myself. :)

[David L. Jones]

a wrote:
> "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1150022953.009699.105640@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > While playing around with placement and setup of my 5.1 speakers I
> > found it makes a dramatic difference when I select the various "Cinema"
> > studio modes on my Sony receiver.
>
> Well, it's like turning on Winamp's bass+treble modes: music sounds way
> better than what the MP3 would normally sound like. So yeah, if cinema
> mode makes 5.1 better for you, then of course go with it! :)

The puzzling thing is that cinema mode sounds more "natural" to more,
more like it does in the cinema (for the same movie).
Maybe the cinemas are using some sort of DSP too?
This is completely opposite to what I thought, as I assumed the
standard 5.1 tracks on the DVD would have already been encoded to give
the best sound, as the director intended.
Then again, how do the actual sound tracks compare between cinema and
DVD versions of film? Are DVD's just a direct copy of the cinema
soundtrack, or is it completely redone for the DVD?

I didn't want to have to use cinema mode, but there is simply no
comparison!
I just watched Revenge of the Sith while switching between the two
modes, and the difference is staggering.

The Sony manual has a bit to say on the effects, but the general gist
of it implies that cinemas (or the Sony ones at least) do in fact use
DSP processing (or use of multiple speakers) to enhance the
soundtracks. The "Cinema Studio EX" function in the Sony receiver is
supposed to duplicate this.

Dave :)

[Italo]

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150069306.599921.44630@g10g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>a wrote:

> The puzzling thing is that cinema mode sounds more "natural" to more,
> more like it does in the cinema (for the same movie).
> Maybe the cinemas are using some sort of DSP too?


No in the cinema you're hearing the same soundtrack as on (recent) DVDs.


> This is completely opposite to what I thought, as I assumed the
> standard 5.1 tracks on the DVD would have already been encoded to give
> the best sound, as the director intended.
> Then again, how do the actual sound tracks compare between cinema and
> DVD versions of film? Are DVD's just a direct copy of the cinema
> soundtrack, or is it completely redone for the DVD?


Direct copy + compression for the format.


> I didn't want to have to use cinema mode, but there is simply no
> comparison!


If it sounds good to you use it. However on a good system, which has been
well calibrated, using any of the DSP modes available on AV amps always
sounds to me either weird or just plain wrong.


> I just watched Revenge of the Sith while switching between the two
> modes, and the difference is staggering.


Again if it sounds good to you use it, but if the difference is that great I
would look at calibrating your system correctly before making a final
judgement on the quality of your amps' DSP modes.


> The Sony manual has a bit to say on the effects, but the general gist
> of it implies that cinemas (or the Sony ones at least) do in fact use
> DSP processing (or use of multiple speakers) to enhance the
> soundtracks. The "Cinema Studio EX" function in the Sony receiver is
> supposed to duplicate this.
>

Some amps are better that others when it comes to DSP modes, but I prefer to
hear the soundtracks as originally mixed on DVD.

--
Italo

[Anthony Horan]

On 11 Jun 2006 16:41:46 -0700, David L. Jones wrote:

> The puzzling thing is that cinema mode sounds more "natural" to more,
> more like it does in the cinema (for the same movie).
> Maybe the cinemas are using some sort of DSP too?

Quite the opposite, actually. The DSP in Sony receivers contains acoustic
models of several real screening and mixing rooms at real locations (mostly
Sony Pictures' facilities).

> This is completely opposite to what I thought, as I assumed the
> standard 5.1 tracks on the DVD would have already been encoded to give
> the best sound, as the director intended.

They are. What your Sony receiver's DSP is doing is NOT what the director
intended, but rather an attempt to make your home theatre room sound like
someone's else's. Personally I can't stand the Sony Cinema DSP modes and
completely ignore them.

> Then again, how do the actual sound tracks compare between cinema and
> DVD versions of film? Are DVD's just a direct copy of the cinema
> soundtrack, or is it completely redone for the DVD?

Soundtracks are usually identical, though there are exceptions (like some
of New Line's titles - Lord Of The Rings trilogy included - which got full
soundtrack remixes specifically for DVD).

> The Sony manual has a bit to say on the effects, but the general gist
> of it implies that cinemas (or the Sony ones at least) do in fact use
> DSP processing (or use of multiple speakers) to enhance the
> soundtracks.

They use multiple surround speakers just like any cinema. But there's no
special DSP used in the cinemas, just the effect the room's acoustic
properties has on the sound.

[David L. Jones]

Anthony Horan wrote:
> On 11 Jun 2006 16:41:46 -0700, David L. Jones wrote:
>
> > The puzzling thing is that cinema mode sounds more "natural" to more,
> > more like it does in the cinema (for the same movie).
> > Maybe the cinemas are using some sort of DSP too?
>
> Quite the opposite, actually. The DSP in Sony receivers contains acoustic
> models of several real screening and mixing rooms at real locations (mostly
> Sony Pictures' facilities).
>
> > This is completely opposite to what I thought, as I assumed the
> > standard 5.1 tracks on the DVD would have already been encoded to give
> > the best sound, as the director intended.
>
> They are. What your Sony receiver's DSP is doing is NOT what the director
> intended, but rather an attempt to make your home theatre room sound like
> someone's else's. Personally I can't stand the Sony Cinema DSP modes and
> completely ignore them.
>
> > Then again, how do the actual sound tracks compare between cinema and
> > DVD versions of film? Are DVD's just a direct copy of the cinema
> > soundtrack, or is it completely redone for the DVD?
>
> Soundtracks are usually identical, though there are exceptions (like some
> of New Line's titles - Lord Of The Rings trilogy included - which got full
> soundtrack remixes specifically for DVD).
>
> > The Sony manual has a bit to say on the effects, but the general gist
> > of it implies that cinemas (or the Sony ones at least) do in fact use
> > DSP processing (or use of multiple speakers) to enhance the
> > soundtracks.
>
> They use multiple surround speakers just like any cinema. But there's no
> special DSP used in the cinemas, just the effect the room's acoustic
> properties has on the sound.

Ok, got it now, thanks.
After some reading it appears that a cinema gets it's dramic sound
from:
a) The shear size of the room
b) The large distance of the listener from the speakers
and c) The use of a large number of speakers surrounding the audience

Now I guess my question is how can you possibly recreate the "cinema"
experience at home unless you have a massive purpose designed room with
*lots* of speakers? - not just the normal 5.1 speakers that almost
everyone has.
Even if your 5.1 speakers are calibrated properly and setup correctly,
how can you hope to recreate the "ambience" of the cinema?

I figure this is why no matter how much tweaking I do to my 5.1 setup,
I just can't get close to the "cinema" sound. Unless of course I use
the Sony cinema mode that attempts to simulate it by creating extra
"virtual" speakers surrounding my actual 5.1 speakers.

I suspect the directors intend everyone to watch the movie in a real
cinema, so I figure the use of these cinema modes is actually closer to
what the director intended!

For those interested here are some links on the Sony cinema modes:
http://www.sony.com.my/about/cretech_digitalcinema.asp?param=2
http://www.sony.com.au/articles/iframes/template4.jsp?articleId=3361&categoryId=23656

I usually don't believe marketing hype, but after hearing and playing
with it myself, I think Sony may be on the right track with their
Cinema Stuio EX. I may be a sucker, but I'm sold! :->

Dave :)

[amber.2]

Ive got a STR DB1070 and i never change from studio ex even on foxtel.
do you use a sub woofer it makes it even better,my wife is always
complaining that i have it too loud as it virbrates the whole house.


--
amber.2

[Italo]

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150169355.097046.200570@f6g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
> Anthony Horan wrote:
> I usually don't believe marketing hype, but after hearing and playing
> with it myself, I think Sony may be on the right track with their
> Cinema Stuio EX. I may be a sucker, but I'm sold! :->
>
> Dave :)

You're not a 'sucker' but if you have your system setup and calibrated
correctly (and your equipment is at least average) you'll find that all DSP
modes sound either totally artificial or just plain wrong (compared to the
originally mixed soundtrack of course).

This is especially so for music titles where it's easier to discern how
distorted the mix is by using a DSP mode. Try a music DVD and apply a DSP
mode and see if you still like it, better still calibrate your system
correctly. Nice ad for SONY though :-)

--
Italo

[Anthony Horan]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:31:16 +1000, Italo wrote:

> "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150169355.097046.200570@f6g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>> Anthony Horan wrote:
>> I usually don't believe marketing hype, but after hearing and playing
>> with it myself, I think Sony may be on the right track with their
>> Cinema Stuio EX. I may be a sucker, but I'm sold! :->

Just as an aside, I didn't write that, in case anyone was wondering. It was
a bodgy bit of quoting from Dave. And I despise "cinema DSP" modes :-)