photovoltaics and power-line carriers

[Dennis]

Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in conjunction
with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10 and
UPB?

I'm wondering what effect the inverter may have on the powerline signals. I
plan to tie the pv on the utility side of a whole-house signal blocker/phase
coupler, but am wondering if that filtering is sufficient to give clean
enough signaling inside the house.

I figure someone here must have already incorporated both PV and PLC systems
(or tried to!) and hopefully will be willing to pass on whatever they
learned from the experience. I'm starting from scratch replacing a house
that burned, so at this point can be pretty flexible as to which way I go
with automation control.

Thanks

Best regards,
Dennis

[J Baber]

Dennis wrote:
> Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in conjunction
> with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10 and
> UPB?
>
Dennis, I have installed a fairly large grid tied PV system (10 kW)
with 4 of the Sunnyboy 2500W inverters. I have some X10 nodules,
generally switches, and they do not appear to be affected by my
inverters.

I also have a rather large capacitor on my system that is there to
correct my previously poor power factor from .79 to .97 (1.00 is
perfect) This capacitor, (actually there are 2 that are between each
of the 120 volt lines and neutral) also couples the PLC signals like
the the X10 units that would be between the 2 120 volt circuits that
make up a 240 volt service.

> I'm wondering what effect the inverter may have on the powerline signals. I
> plan to tie the pv on the utility side of a whole-house signal blocker/phase
> coupler, but am wondering if that filtering is sufficient to give clean
> enough signaling inside the house.
>
> I figure someone here must have already incorporated both PV and PLC systems
> (or tried to!) and hopefully will be willing to pass on whatever they
> learned from the experience. I'm starting from scratch replacing a house
> that burned, so at this point can be pretty flexible as to which way I go
> with automation control.

Jim Baber's comment:
Go for it, mine works all over a 4000 Sqft house, I only have the
typical X10 glitch maybe once a month, usually associated with a bulb
failure. I do even use CFL bulbs in appliance modules
>
> Thanks
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis
>
Jim Baber
jim@nospambaber.org
see webpage at
www.baber.org

Jim Baber
Email jim@NOJUNKbaber.org


1350 W Mesa Ave.
Fresno CA, 93711
(559) 435-9068
(559) 905-2204 (A no charge Verizon IN cellphone to other Verizon IN accounts)
See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"

[Dennis]

Thank you Jim. I should have mentioned that I'm going to be using a 2.5kW
Sunnyboy. It's really nice to hear that you are using that exact inverter.
I'm only going for 2500W total, but my new house is half the footage of
yours, and my power utilization in the old house was less than what we
project the 2500 inverter to produce (averaged over the year).

I do plan to have a phase coupler, of course, with a whole-house surge
surpressor and signal blocker to keep out potential signals from neighbors
on "the other side of the line".

Was your inductive power factor a result of the PV system? Do the inverters
cause a lagging power factor? I am going to be running several 120v motors
to circulate hot water (radiant heat), and move air -- I'm wondering if I'll
be getting into a power factor correction situation (now that you brought it
up).

I'd imagine in Fresno you use a lot of air conditioning. I'm in San
Leandro and we have the bay as our natural air conditioner! I'm not even
going to have an air conditioner -- just lots of mass. I guess that's why
our utilizations are so different.

Thanks again.

Dennis


"J Baber" <jimbaber1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:S-CdnRRCGMIXRWvcRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
> Dennis wrote:
>> Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in
>> conjunction
>> with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10
>> and
>> UPB?
>>
> Dennis, I have installed a fairly large grid tied PV system (10 kW)
> with 4 of the Sunnyboy 2500W inverters. I have some X10 nodules,
> generally switches, and they do not appear to be affected by my
> inverters.
>
> I also have a rather large capacitor on my system that is there to
> correct my previously poor power factor from .79 to .97 (1.00 is
> perfect) This capacitor, (actually there are 2 that are between each
> of the 120 volt lines and neutral) also couples the PLC signals like
> the the X10 units that would be between the 2 120 volt circuits that
> make up a 240 volt service.
>
>> I'm wondering what effect the inverter may have on the powerline signals.
>> I
>> plan to tie the pv on the utility side of a whole-house signal
>> blocker/phase
>> coupler, but am wondering if that filtering is sufficient to give clean
>> enough signaling inside the house.
>>
>> I figure someone here must have already incorporated both PV and PLC
>> systems
>> (or tried to!) and hopefully will be willing to pass on whatever they
>> learned from the experience. I'm starting from scratch replacing a house
>> that burned, so at this point can be pretty flexible as to which way I go
>> with automation control.
>
> Jim Baber's comment:
> Go for it, mine works all over a 4000 Sqft house, I only have the
> typical X10 glitch maybe once a month, usually associated with a bulb
> failure. I do even use CFL bulbs in appliance modules
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Dennis
>>
> Jim Baber
> jim@nospambaber.org
> see webpage at
> www.baber.org
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Jim Baber
> Email jim@NOJUNKbaber.org
>
>
> 1350 W Mesa Ave.
> Fresno CA, 93711
> (559) 435-9068
> (559) 905-2204 (A no charge Verizon IN cellphone to other Verizon IN
> accounts)
> See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"
>

[J Baber]

Dennis wrote:
> Thank you Jim. I should have mentioned that I'm going to be using a 2.5kW
> Sunnyboy. It's really nice to hear that you are using that exact inverter.
> I'm only going for 2500W total, but my new house is half the footage of
> yours, and my power utilization in the old house was less than what we
> project the 2500 inverter to produce (averaged over the year).
>
> I do plan to have a phase coupler, of course, with a whole-house surge
> surpressor and signal blocker to keep out potential signals from neighbors
> on "the other side of the line".
>
> Was your inductive power factor a result of the PV system?
Jim replied:
No, measured it with inverters turned off because I was wondering the
same thing

> Do the inverters cause a lagging power factor?
Jim replied:
Per the SMA specifications the Sunnyboy's power factor is 1.00
(perfect), but I didn't test that.
> I am going to be running several 120v motors
> to circulate hot water (radiant heat), and move air -- I'm wondering if I'll
> be getting into a power factor correction situation (now that you brought it
> up).
Jim replied:
I suspect you won't, however those pump motors and fan motors are
generally very bad about messing up the power factor.

Also, although Compact Fluorescent Light (CFL) bulbs typically save a
lot of wattage for the watts used (23W CFL = 90W of incandescent
light) the power factor on the CFLs are so bad (.75) that by
correcting it I was able to further reduce the consumption to about
17W for the 1 example I showed. I use the more expensive Dimmable CFL
because they do not seem to bother my remote ceiling fan controls or
worse my X10 stuff and they do dim if someone hits the wrong X10
button (instead of getting disappearing).

I do have about 18 of these CFL bulbs now, but I do not have any idea
of what percentage of time they are operating at any given time so I
can't tell how much of an impact my power factor correction is having
with the total usage.

The ballasts in ordinary flourescents are also a major cause of poor
power factors, but again they save a lot of watts for the light they
give you.

>
> I'd imagine in Fresno you use a lot of air conditioning. I'm in San
> Leandro and we have the bay as our natural air conditioner! I'm not even
> going to have an air conditioner -- just lots of mass. I guess that's why
> our utilizations are so different.
Jim replied:
You are lucky there, but I suggest that you might consider using a
central heating and air conditioning system just for the resale value
later, because you will sell someday. if you use a setback style
thermostat, and set it to something like 80 daytime, 70 nighttime it
will seldom run, but make life tolerable when you really need it.

Since I believe San Leandro is a PG&E service area, your power is very
expensive. PG&E does allow people using solar PV to use their Time Of
Use rate plan, but they won't suggest it. It costs you an additional
$277 for the special meter one time, but it has saved me over $700
in the year I have had it and I am home all day with that A/C you
mentioned needed. I do not run my A/C between noon and 6 PM, but
because of the house's mass, insulation, and dual pane windows, the
interior will not rise above 80 degrees until after the 6 PM end of
peak rate period. Also a point to consider, is that the TOU rate
(last summer) was about $0.32 peak period (noon - 6 PM weekdays) vs
$0.09 off peak (everything else) and this meant that any power I sent
to the grid between noon and 6 PM when solar is best earned more than
3 times as much $ credit as it would otherwise without the TOU. Note:
PG&E determines the billed credits or costs dependent on the $ Value
of the power at the time it was drawn from or sent to the grid.
>
>>Dennis originally wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in
>>>conjunction
>>>with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10
>>>and
>>>UPB?
>>>
>>
>>Dennis, I have installed a fairly large grid tied PV system (10 kW)
>>with 4 of the Sunnyboy 2500W inverters. I have some X10 nodules,
>>generally switches, and they do not appear to be affected by my
>>inverters.
>>
>>I also have a rather large capacitor on my system that is there to
>>correct my previously poor power factor from .79 to .97 (1.00 is
>>perfect) This capacitor, (actually there are 2 that are between each
>>of the 120 volt lines and neutral) also couples the PLC signals like
>>the the X10 units that would be between the 2 120 volt circuits that
>>make up a 240 volt service.
>>
>>>>Jim Baber
>>Email jim@NOJUNKbaber.org
>>
>>
>>1350 W Mesa Ave.
>>Fresno CA, 93711
>>See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"

[Dennis]

Thanks again. My PV provider/installer has already included arranging and
installing a TOU meter. And yes, we have dear old PG&E here. I don't think
a lot of the energy price problem was of their making. Back when the state
de-regulated they made PG&E divest themselves of all their generating
facilities which put them at the mercy of whomever they had to buy power
from (hmm, good ol' Enron, for one).

All of the new generating capacity that they've rushe on-line here in the
Bay Area is gas-fired, which to my mind is outright short-sighted stupidity.
It's easy to clean-up gas-fired plants for the Bay Area Air Quality
standards, but to generate electricity from the cleanest fossil fuel (when
that fuel is already in short supply) is insane. Far better for a
stationary large generating plant to use a dirtier fuel and invest the money
to scrub the exhaust. Better yet would be more nuclear (especially when
teamed with pump-storage like at the Helms project down near you), though
I'm sure plenty of ignorant folks would argue against that.

I'm way down the design road of having hot water circulating radiant heat
with lots of insulation, mass, etc. to give temperature stability. Adding
central air at this point would require an almost completely redundant
forced air system. I do have a way to circulate incoming exchange air
through the lower portion of the slab prior to introducing to the house. In
the summer I expect to be able to hold the slab temperature down to
something livable using shading and automatic insulating shutters that will
shut out the passive solar gain from the largest expanses glass.

A lot of what I'm trying is hybrid design from several passive and active
solar systems I studdied. I've done a lot of heat loss/gain calculations
and everything looks like it should work. If the summer cooling scheme
turns out to really be a bust, I plan to just add room air conditioners a
few places. For the most part, I'm relying on a lot of mass, high
insulation values, our normal weather patterns and tight construction to
keep things under control. I'll also have a whole house fan that will let
me take advantage of our always cool morning temperatures to replace
accumulated hot air that the mass will have given out over night.

Reckon time will tell!

"J Baber" <jimbaber1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Bdmdnd_M8tQej2HcRVn-2Q@comcast.com...
> Dennis wrote:
>> Thank you Jim. I should have mentioned that I'm going to be using a
>> 2.5kW Sunnyboy. It's really nice to hear that you are using that exact
>> inverter. I'm only going for 2500W total, but my new house is half the
>> footage of yours, and my power utilization in the old house was less than
>> what we project the 2500 inverter to produce (averaged over the year).
>>
>> I do plan to have a phase coupler, of course, with a whole-house surge
>> surpressor and signal blocker to keep out potential signals from
>> neighbors on "the other side of the line".
>>
>> Was your inductive power factor a result of the PV system?
> Jim replied:
> No, measured it with inverters turned off because I was wondering the same
> thing
>
>> Do the inverters cause a lagging power factor?
> Jim replied:
> Per the SMA specifications the Sunnyboy's power factor is 1.00 (perfect),
> but I didn't test that.
>> I am going to be running several 120v motors to circulate hot water
>> (radiant heat), and move air -- I'm wondering if I'll be getting into a
>> power factor correction situation (now that you brought it up).
> Jim replied:
> I suspect you won't, however those pump motors and fan motors are
> generally very bad about messing up the power factor.
>
> Also, although Compact Fluorescent Light (CFL) bulbs typically save a lot
> of wattage for the watts used (23W CFL = 90W of incandescent light) the
> power factor on the CFLs are so bad (.75) that by correcting it I was able
> to further reduce the consumption to about 17W for the 1 example I showed.
> I use the more expensive Dimmable CFL because they do not seem to bother
> my remote ceiling fan controls or worse my X10 stuff and they do dim if
> someone hits the wrong X10 button (instead of getting disappearing).
>
> I do have about 18 of these CFL bulbs now, but I do not have any idea of
> what percentage of time they are operating at any given time so I can't
> tell how much of an impact my power factor correction is having
> with the total usage.
>
> The ballasts in ordinary flourescents are also a major cause of poor power
> factors, but again they save a lot of watts for the light they give you.
>
>>
>> I'd imagine in Fresno you use a lot of air conditioning. I'm in San
>> Leandro and we have the bay as our natural air conditioner! I'm not even
>> going to have an air conditioner -- just lots of mass. I guess that's
>> why our utilizations are so different.
> Jim replied:
> You are lucky there, but I suggest that you might consider using a central
> heating and air conditioning system just for the resale value later,
> because you will sell someday. if you use a setback style thermostat, and
> set it to something like 80 daytime, 70 nighttime it will seldom run, but
> make life tolerable when you really need it.
>
> Since I believe San Leandro is a PG&E service area, your power is very
> expensive. PG&E does allow people using solar PV to use their Time Of Use
> rate plan, but they won't suggest it. It costs you an additional $277 for
> the special meter one time, but it has saved me over $700 in the year I
> have had it and I am home all day with that A/C you mentioned needed. I
> do not run my A/C between noon and 6 PM, but because of the house's mass,
> insulation, and dual pane windows, the interior will not rise above 80
> degrees until after the 6 PM end of peak rate period. Also a point to
> consider, is that the TOU rate (last summer) was about $0.32 peak period
> (noon - 6 PM weekdays) vs $0.09 off peak (everything else) and this meant
> that any power I sent to the grid between noon and 6 PM when solar is best
> earned more than 3 times as much $ credit as it would otherwise without
> the TOU. Note:
> PG&E determines the billed credits or costs dependent on the $ Value of
> the power at the time it was drawn from or sent to the grid.
>>
>>>Dennis originally wrote:
>>>
>>>>Anyone have any experience with grid-tied PV system working in
>>>>conjunction
>>>>with home automation, in particular power-line carrier types like X-10
>>>>and
>>>>UPB?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Dennis, I have installed a fairly large grid tied PV system (10 kW)
>>>with 4 of the Sunnyboy 2500W inverters. I have some X10 nodules,
>>>generally switches, and they do not appear to be affected by my
>>>inverters.
>>>
>>>I also have a rather large capacitor on my system that is there to
>>>correct my previously poor power factor from .79 to .97 (1.00 is
>>>perfect) This capacitor, (actually there are 2 that are between each
>>>of the 120 volt lines and neutral) also couples the PLC signals like
>>>the the X10 units that would be between the 2 120 volt circuits that
>>>make up a 240 volt service.
>>>
>>>>>Jim Baber
>>>Email jim@NOJUNKbaber.org
>>>
>>>
>>>1350 W Mesa Ave.
>>>Fresno CA, 93711
>>>See our 10kW grid tied solar system at "www.baber.org"

[J Baber]

Dennis wrote:

>Thanks again. My PV provider/installer has already included arranging and
>installing a TOU meter. And yes, we have dear old PG&E here. I don't think
>a lot of the energy price problem was of their making. Back when the state
>de-regulated they made PG&E divest themselves of all their generating
>facilities which put them at the mercy of whomever they had to buy power
>from (hmm, good ol' Enron, for one).
>
>
Jim Baber's comments:
But, if PG&E had not distributed all of their on hand cash assets
back to the PG&E Corporate holding company in New Jersey, the bankruptcy
would not have been necessary. Also, if the FEMA had done the job they
were intended to do, regulating the power suppliers, the obscene costs
to California's taxpayers for the ISO's power purchases that were passed
partially on to the 3 privately held utilities would not have occurred.

>All of the new generating capacity that they've rushed on-line here in the
>Bay Area is gas-fired, which to my mind is outright short-sighted stupidity.
>
Jim Baber's comments:
I agree, hydrogen is NOT an answer to the loss of oil and gas.

>It's easy to clean-up gas-fired plants for the Bay Area Air Quality
>standards, but to generate electricity from the cleanest fossil fuel (when
>that fuel is already in short supply) is insane. Far better for a
>stationary large generating plant to use a dirtier fuel and invest the money
>to scrub the exhaust. Better yet would be more nuclear (especially when
>teamed with pump-storage like at the Helms project down near you), though
>I'm sure plenty of ignorant folks would argue against that.
>
>I'm way down the design road of having hot water circulating radiant heat
>with lots of insulation, mass, etc. to give temperature stability. Adding
>central air at this point would require an almost completely redundant
>forced air system. I do have a way to circulate incoming exchange air
>through the lower portion of the slab prior to introducing to the house. In
>the summer I expect to be able to hold the slab temperature down to
>something livable using shading and automatic insulating shutters that will
>shut out the passive solar gain from the largest expanses glass.
>
>A lot of what I'm trying is hybrid design from several passive and active
>solar systems I studdied. I've done a lot of heat loss/gain calculations
>and everything looks like it should work. If the summer cooling scheme
>turns out to really be a bust, I plan to just add room air conditioners a
>few places. For the most part, I'm relying on a lot of mass, high
>insulation values, our normal weather patterns and tight construction to
>keep things under control. I'll also have a whole house fan that will let
>me take advantage of our always cool morning temperatures to replace
>accumulated hot air that the mass will have given out over night.
>
>
Jim Baber's comments:
My whole house fan is only turned on when the outside temp. exceeds
the inside by 5 degrees. It doesn't seem to be effective if there is not
at least that much differential. I have things set up so the whole
house fan can not run if the air conditioner is running.

The addition of this reduced last August's total wattage/degree days
consumed by 8% as compared to the prior August's same
total wattage/degree days consumed factor. I used the total
wattage/degree days computed factor to avoid the variance in temperature
in the 2 years.
In August, our peak temperature here is often above 105, and almost
always above 100. My whole house fan usually will run from 23:00 to
08:00 before the air conditioning takes over. It runs at its low
(quieter) speed if temperature is below 95 and only runs at high speed
(a bit noisy, but we didn't notice it after the first couple of nights)
if the outside temperature is above 94.

>Reckon time will tell!
>
>