Underfloor Heating Update [Archive]

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Sam Skillern

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Hi All

Thank you for your advice - unfortunately looking at the prices,
although this is the option i would much rather prefer - we are trying
to find a solution which will be cost effective for us (we are currently
spending 800 pounds plus on Honeywell RF Controllers for the actuators
per installation.

I have been looking at X-10 and have found the following on
www.letsautomate.co.uk

16 Board Low Voltage X-10 Relay Board
CM12 X10 controller for PC
Homeseer software.

It looks like this could provide us with a solution - as the total cost
of all three is around 380 including accessories. I also like the
feature that allows it to be programmed through the web interface on the
homeseer software, and that we can offer them additinal X-10 controllers
should they need anything else automated.

What are peoples opinions on homeseer? Is there a posibility to re-brand
the homeseer software? (or should i just ask them really nicely?)

Cheers everyone.
Sam

Dan

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Sam Skillern wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Thank you for your advice - unfortunately looking at the prices,
> although this is the option i would much rather prefer - we are trying
> to find a solution which will be cost effective for us (we are currently
> spending 800 pounds plus on Honeywell RF Controllers for the actuators
> per installation.
>
> I have been looking at X-10 and have found the following on
> www.letsautomate.co.uk
>
> 16 Board Low Voltage X-10 Relay Board
> CM12 X10 controller for PC
> Homeseer software.
>
> It looks like this could provide us with a solution - as the total cost
> of all three is around 380 including accessories. I also like the
> feature that allows it to be programmed through the web interface on the
> homeseer software, and that we can offer them additinal X-10 controllers
> should they need anything else automated.
>
> What are peoples opinions on homeseer? Is there a posibility to re-brand
> the homeseer software? (or should i just ask them really nicely?)
>
> Cheers everyone.
> Sam

I think using X10 for something as 'critical' as this should not even be
an option, it is just asking for problems, even in an environment where
your signal reliability is 99.9%, you have to worry about that one
'stray' signal which might set off an entire chain reaction. I still
recommend the Ocelot, you can't beat the reliability and expansion
options, or even better (as Brian mentioned earlier), the Leopard, which
is basically an Ocelot with a Touch Screen, and there is no PC needed,
which should bring the cost down quite a bit.

As for Homeseer, it is reliable if you stick with the stable builds and
don't insist on trying the latest beta (but that's the case with any
software package). If you use a quality motherboard and quality ram,
you should be fine. I am not sure if they will allow rebranding, but I
would just email them and ask. They are coming out with a PRO100
machine, which is a tiny box (1u), mini-itx based, runs Windows XP
embedded from flash, so there are no moving parts in that machine which
means it should be much more reliable than a regular PC, maybe that
would be an option for you? It all depends on how serious you are about
this ;)

dan

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

For what it's worth, I agree with everyone who said don't use X-10. It's
very unreliable. Suppose you send an X-10 command to close a relay and the
command doesn't get there. You have no way to know that, other than to
either directly check the relay state (in which case why not just control
the relay directly?) or when you find the place is heated to 150 degrees, or
freezing (I exaggerate a bit, but you get the point). I personally would not
use X-10 for anything other than lighting control, and it's not the greatest
for that either. Not to mention the fact that X-10 product quality is
severely lacking.

That's my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Matt

"Dan" <haguru@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qQPFd.137212$Uf.133618@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .
> Sam Skillern wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > Thank you for your advice - unfortunately looking at the prices,
> > although this is the option i would much rather prefer - we are trying
> > to find a solution which will be cost effective for us (we are currently
> > spending 800 pounds plus on Honeywell RF Controllers for the actuators
> > per installation.
> >
> > I have been looking at X-10 and have found the following on
> > www.letsautomate.co.uk
> >
> > 16 Board Low Voltage X-10 Relay Board
> > CM12 X10 controller for PC
> > Homeseer software.
> >
> > It looks like this could provide us with a solution - as the total cost
> > of all three is around 380 including accessories. I also like the
> > feature that allows it to be programmed through the web interface on the
> > homeseer software, and that we can offer them additinal X-10 controllers
> > should they need anything else automated.
> >
> > What are peoples opinions on homeseer? Is there a posibility to re-brand
> > the homeseer software? (or should i just ask them really nicely?)
> >
> > Cheers everyone.
> > Sam
>
> I think using X10 for something as 'critical' as this should not even be
> an option, it is just asking for problems, even in an environment where
> your signal reliability is 99.9%, you have to worry about that one
> 'stray' signal which might set off an entire chain reaction. I still
> recommend the Ocelot, you can't beat the reliability and expansion
> options, or even better (as Brian mentioned earlier), the Leopard, which
> is basically an Ocelot with a Touch Screen, and there is no PC needed,
> which should bring the cost down quite a bit.
>
> As for Homeseer, it is reliable if you stick with the stable builds and
> don't insist on trying the latest beta (but that's the case with any
> software package). If you use a quality motherboard and quality ram,
> you should be fine. I am not sure if they will allow rebranding, but I
> would just email them and ask. They are coming out with a PRO100
> machine, which is a tiny box (1u), mini-itx based, runs Windows XP
> embedded from flash, so there are no moving parts in that machine which
> means it should be much more reliable than a regular PC, maybe that
> would be an option for you? It all depends on how serious you are about
> this ;)
>
>
> dan

George

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Sam Skillern

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Sam Skillern wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Thank you for your advice - unfortunately looking at the prices,
> although this is the option i would much rather prefer - we are trying
> to find a solution which will be cost effective for us (we are currently
> spending 800 pounds plus on Honeywell RF Controllers for the actuators
> per installation.
>
> I have been looking at X-10 and have found the following on
> www.letsautomate.co.uk
>
> 16 Board Low Voltage X-10 Relay Board
> CM12 X10 controller for PC
> Homeseer software.
>
> It looks like this could provide us with a solution - as the total cost
> of all three is around 380 including accessories. I also like the
> feature that allows it to be programmed through the web interface on the
> homeseer software, and that we can offer them additinal X-10 controllers
> should they need anything else automated.
>
> What are peoples opinions on homeseer? Is there a posibility to re-brand
> the homeseer software? (or should i just ask them really nicely?)
>
> Cheers everyone.
> Sam

Thanks for your advice everyone - I was hesitant to use X-10 in the
first place - it just seemed a little simpler - but now i have an excuse
to not use it - i wont.

Ive just been told that controlling the actuators isnt enough, i
actually have to control the power feed to the boilers and pumps or
something - need to get my hands on some of the equipment they actually
want to control before i go much further.

I would prefer a wired solution to X-10 so I shall look into the Ocelot
and Leopard in more detail - and i agree the PRO100 machine does look
like it might fit the slot as far as dedicated PC's go.

Its time to hit google i think - and see what i can drum up , im sure
when i know exactly what im doing - ill be back to pick your brains a
little more.

Thanks Again,
Sam

Robert L. Bass

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

"Sam Skillern" <contactme@samuelskillern.com> wrote in message
news:h2NFd.145643$Z7.44735@fe2.news.blueyonder.co. uk...
> Hi All
>
> Thank you for your advice - unfortunately looking at the prices, although
> this is the option i would much rather prefer - we are trying to find a
> solution which will be cost effective for us (we are currently spending
> 800 pounds plus on Honeywell RF Controllers for the actuators per
> installation.
>
> I have been looking at X-10 and have found the following on
> www.letsautomate.co.uk
>
> 16 Board Low Voltage X-10 Relay Board
> CM12 X10 controller for PC
> Homeseer software.
>
> It looks like this could provide us with a solution - as the total cost of
> all three is around 380 including accessories. I also like the feature
> that allows it to be programmed through the web interface on the homeseer
> software, and that we can offer them additinal X-10 controllers should
> they need anything else automated.
>
> What are peoples opinions on homeseer? Is there a posibility to re-brand
> the homeseer software? (or should i just ask them really nicely?)

HomeSeer is great. Just remember that you'll need a constant on PC to run
it. That might take the price over budget. As to X10, it might be less
expensive but to date there have not been many reports of *reliable* X10
implementations. When X10 controls a lighting circuit it's not particularly
critical. If it doesn't respond the user pushes the command again. If the
under floor heat system fails to come on the user might not notice it until
for an hour or more. Then it will take a long time to build up the
temperature again. Worse, if the X10 fails while the client is away for a
winter weekend he may come home to frozen pipes.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Mick

24-01-2005, 11:41 AM

checking the relay is simple, use a dual contact and monitor the state of the
other contact. This method is used a lot in industry fir status feedback too
the control system

Mick

md wrote:
> You have no way to know that, other than to either directly check the relay
> state (in which case why not just control the relay directly?)
>
> Matt
>