CBUS Automation Installation - FF main wiring completed

[Michael Farragher]

Hi all,

I am in the middle of a self build house and have all the electrical wiring
fitted but no wall plates purchased yet however I am interested in the
Automation.

A lot of people seem to be into the X10 and I thought of it myself for a
while until I read somewhere that this new CBUS system was better.

The wiring is now already running to the walls and sockets and the
plastering of the walls and cellings is ongoing.

For the CBUS to work correctly should the mains have being going to one main
hub rather than each room switches and only the CAT5 to the rooms
themselves. If thats the case then I afraid I have to throw the idea out of
my head as a lot of work has gone in it like a tube station with all the
cables running around my attic -).

As I have already got the metal boxes on the walls can the CBUS switch wall
plates fit over them. (I'm located in Ireland so UK Horizontal Standard wall
plates needed).

Will the one mains relay do all of the sockets or would more be better ?

Each power socket is a double socket and some switches have 4 switches eg at
back door for lights.

I haven't examined the details two much as to how much it would cost me but
the costs would worry me a bit as one could spend a lot between switches and
sockets etc.
I have 3 double sockets in each room of the 4 bedrooms 5 in the study 2 in
the sitting room 4 in the living room, about 4 in the utility, 2 in the
hallway and approx 5 in the kitchen. There's also going to be 4 in the attic
in each corner but theres probably may not be needed for the time been.
Thats over 30 odd sockets if I cover everything.

The voltage relays can be seen here which one is better or worse if I had to
get a lot of them it could be pricy !!
http://www.cbus-shop.com/index.php?cPath=26

If I could get a list of the basic items to start off with it would be great
or some good links.

Thanks very much

Michael

[AJL]

Hi, I have installed Clipsal CBUS throughout my home as well as interfacing
it to a home automation system. It works a treat - X-10 is not a very
reliable system and while my home automation also supports it and I use it
for the odd table lamp, CBUS is vastly superior. Of course CBUS uses cat-5
cable for control and has a lwish data rate so star and parallel wiring for
control work as long as no one segment is over a 1000 metres in length.
Clipsal have just released a CBUS compatible wireless system for use in
house which are already conventionally cabled and it is not practical to get
a control cable to each face plate. I will write to your email with my
email address if you have any other queries,
Regards

Drew

"Michael Farragher" <michaelfarragher@*******eircom.net> wrote in message
news:34135jF45uk9vU1@individual.net...
Hi all,

I am in the middle of a self build house and have all the electrical wiring
fitted but no wall plates purchased yet however I am interested in the
Automation.

A lot of people seem to be into the X10 and I thought of it myself for a
while until I read somewhere that this new CBUS system was better.

The wiring is now already running to the walls and sockets and the
plastering of the walls and cellings is ongoing.

For the CBUS to work correctly should the mains have being going to one main
hub rather than each room switches and only the CAT5 to the rooms
themselves. If thats the case then I afraid I have to throw the idea out of
my head as a lot of work has gone in it like a tube station with all the
cables running around my attic -).

As I have already got the metal boxes on the walls can the CBUS switch wall
plates fit over them. (I'm located in Ireland so UK Horizontal Standard wall
plates needed).

Will the one mains relay do all of the sockets or would more be better ?

Each power socket is a double socket and some switches have 4 switches eg at
back door for lights.

I haven't examined the details two much as to how much it would cost me but
the costs would worry me a bit as one could spend a lot between switches and
sockets etc.
I have 3 double sockets in each room of the 4 bedrooms 5 in the study 2 in
the sitting room 4 in the living room, about 4 in the utility, 2 in the
hallway and approx 5 in the kitchen. There's also going to be 4 in the attic
in each corner but theres probably may not be needed for the time been.
Thats over 30 odd sockets if I cover everything.

The voltage relays can be seen here which one is better or worse if I had to
get a lot of them it could be pricy !!
http://www.cbus-shop.com/index.php?cPath=26

If I could get a list of the basic items to start off with it would be great
or some good links.

Thanks very much

Michael

[Michael Farragher]

At the moment there is no wall plates on the sockets or switches just mains
cable. I think I could run the CAT5 in the majority of places down the same
conduits on the walls as the power cables are currently running to the
rooms.
Does one have to get these special switch sockets or is there a cheaper
alternative.
What the make up of the inside of these switches. I don't suppose the there
is AC contacts and then CBUS contacts for each switch (say if you had 4
switches 16 contacts).
If I had known sooner would it have been better or the proper way if all the
AC wires were going to one place and the CAT5 CBUS coming from there to the
rooms.

Regards,

Michael

"AJL" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:iIPCd.104670$K7.43575@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Hi, I have installed Clipsal CBUS throughout my home as well as
> interfacing
> it to a home automation system. It works a treat - X-10 is not a very
> reliable system and while my home automation also supports it and I use it
> for the odd table lamp, CBUS is vastly superior. Of course CBUS uses
> cat-5
> cable for control and has a lwish data rate so star and parallel wiring
> for
> control work as long as no one segment is over a 1000 metres in length.
> Clipsal have just released a CBUS compatible wireless system for use in
> house which are already conventionally cabled and it is not practical to
> get
> a control cable to each face plate. I will write to your email with my
> email address if you have any other queries,
> Regards
>
> Drew
>
> "Michael Farragher" <michaelfarragher@*******eircom.net> wrote in message
> news:34135jF45uk9vU1@individual.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I am in the middle of a self build house and have all the electrical
> wiring
> fitted but no wall plates purchased yet however I am interested in the
> Automation.
>
> A lot of people seem to be into the X10 and I thought of it myself for a
> while until I read somewhere that this new CBUS system was better.
>
> The wiring is now already running to the walls and sockets and the
> plastering of the walls and cellings is ongoing.
>
> For the CBUS to work correctly should the mains have being going to one
> main
> hub rather than each room switches and only the CAT5 to the rooms
> themselves. If thats the case then I afraid I have to throw the idea out
> of
> my head as a lot of work has gone in it like a tube station with all the
> cables running around my attic -).
>
> As I have already got the metal boxes on the walls can the CBUS switch
> wall
> plates fit over them. (I'm located in Ireland so UK Horizontal Standard
> wall
> plates needed).
>
> Will the one mains relay do all of the sockets or would more be better ?
>
> Each power socket is a double socket and some switches have 4 switches eg
> at
> back door for lights.
>
> I haven't examined the details two much as to how much it would cost me
> but
> the costs would worry me a bit as one could spend a lot between switches
> and
> sockets etc.
> I have 3 double sockets in each room of the 4 bedrooms 5 in the study 2 in
> the sitting room 4 in the living room, about 4 in the utility, 2 in the
> hallway and approx 5 in the kitchen. There's also going to be 4 in the
> attic
> in each corner but theres probably may not be needed for the time been.
> Thats over 30 odd sockets if I cover everything.
>
> The voltage relays can be seen here which one is better or worse if I had
> to
> get a lot of them it could be pricy !!
> http://www.cbus-shop.com/index.php?cPath=26
>
> If I could get a list of the basic items to start off with it would be
> great
> or some good links.
>
> Thanks very much
>
> Michael
>
>
>

[wkearney99]

> At the moment there is no wall plates on the sockets or switches just
mains
> cable. I think I could run the CAT5 in the majority of places down the
same
> conduits on the walls as the power cables are currently running to the
> rooms.

BE VERY SURE about whether your local building codes allow putting low
voltage down the same conduit as AC supply. Most don't. Nor do they allow
placement of low voltage devices in the same box as AC devices (without
separation).

> If I had known sooner would it have been better or the proper way if all
the
> AC wires were going to one place and the CAT5 CBUS coming from there to
the
> rooms.

Heh, don't we all wish we knew enough ahead of time for this. Trouble is
you end up with a HUGE amount of wire being pulled back a central location.
At a cost much greater than most situations can justify. And also
presenting a big physical installation problem. Pulling all that wire to a
panel greatly increases the required space for the panel and all that wire.

It's really a tough set of compromises isn't it?

-Bill Kearney

[Lurch]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:55:34 -0000, "Michael Farragher"
<michaelfarragher@*******eircom.net> strung together this:

>At the moment there is no wall plates on the sockets or switches just mains
>cable. I think I could run the CAT5 in the majority of places down the same
>conduits on the walls as the power cables are currently running to the
>rooms.

I would never run signal\communications cable next to mains. I can
assure it causes inteferenc problems. If you're going to install cat5
cables throughout the house then make sure that the cat5 is at least
50mm from mains cables through out.

--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

[Mick]

Lurch wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:55:34 -0000, "Michael Farragher"
> <michaelfarragher@*******eircom.net> strung together this:
>
>
>>At the moment there is no wall plates on the sockets or switches just mains
>>cable. I think I could run the CAT5 in the majority of places down the same
>>conduits on the walls as the power cables are currently running to the
>>rooms.
>
>
> I would never run signal\communications cable next to mains. I can
> assure it causes inteferenc problems. If you're going to install cat5
> cables throughout the house then make sure that the cat5 is at least
> 50mm from mains cables through out.
>
you have never isntalled a c-bus system then have you.

While that theory is correct, the use of the cat5 in a c-bus system
requires you to run it in a circuit breaker box with all low voltage power.

This is why Clipsal recomend the use of their pink cat5, it has a sheath
rating suitable for low voltage as opposed to that of standard cat5
which is not rated (ie to approx 600V for the pink stuff).

This does allow you to run it with your power cables and not violate any
codes (as a previous post mentioned).

Please people, understand where a person lives and how the system works
before you give advice on codes. If the OP does not understand what his
local codes are then s/he should not be attempting the project without
local help.

There is an excellent forum for all clipsal c-bus related stuff here
http://www.cbusforums.com/forums/index.php. Ask your questions here and
you will get answers from the clipsal tech guys themselves.

As for C-bus, I use it and many others do as well (Uk and Astralia).
Clipsal have released a wireless range that may suit what the OP
requires for his "retrofit", although if the gyprock is not up yet then
a full re-wire may be more beneficial. Yes it will cost you a little
more but you will end up with a fully capable, wire c-bus system that is
going to take you well into the 21st century

Mick

[Lurch]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:26:39 +1100, Mick <stuck@work.com> strung
together this:

>you have never isntalled a c-bus system then have you.
>
No, is cat5 used for mains round your way then, or is it control and
communication cabling?

>While that theory is correct, the use of the cat5 in a c-bus system
>requires you to run it in a circuit breaker box with all low voltage power.
>
I'm not sure of the best way to explain this to you, running 12" of
cat5 insuide a box for final connection to control equipment is
acceptable. Running it the entire length of the house next to mains
cables isn't particularly good practice.

>This is why Clipsal recomend the use of their pink cat5, it has a sheath
>rating suitable for low voltage as opposed to that of standard cat5
>which is not rated (ie to approx 600V for the pink stuff).
>
>This does allow you to run it with your power cables and not violate any
>codes (as a previous post mentioned).
>
We don't have 'codes'

>Please people, understand where a person lives and how the system works
>before you give advice on codes. If the OP does not understand what his
>local codes are then s/he should not be attempting the project without
>local help.
>
Maybe you should understand, this is x-posted to
uk.tech.home-automation, I am local to the UK, what with me being in
it. I am offering local help to people who read the aforementioned
group.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

[wkearney99]

> While that theory is correct, the use of the cat5 in a c-bus system
> requires you to run it in a circuit breaker box with all low voltage
power.

Low voltage or mains AC voltage? The difference is doubtless QUITE
important to local codes. In the US it's verboten to mix the two
improperly.

> This is why Clipsal recomend the use of their pink cat5, it has a sheath
> rating suitable for low voltage as opposed to that of standard cat5
> which is not rated (ie to approx 600V for the pink stuff).

12v is low voltage, 24v is low voltage, usually in DC not AC. Mains 240VAC
or 110 isn't what most would consider low voltage in a residential or office
setting.

> This does allow you to run it with your power cables and not violate any
> codes (as a previous post mentioned).

Depending on what 'power' you're talking about though. Granted this is
certainly going to be mitigated by what the local electrical codes allow. A
great many do not allow placement of AC mains voltage alongside low voltage
control signals. If the OP's region is one that does then, well, that's
great. I sort of doubt it but anything's possible.

It's always a VERY good idea to consult with a local licensed electrician
before installing *any* sort of wires. If only at the counter of a local
equipment supply place. Bear in mind that building codes are there for more
than just a electrical reasons. Proper installation of wiring isn't just to
avoid fire or shock from electrical hazards. Badly installed wire presents
other safety risks. Especially in the event of a fire caused by other
reasons. Like risks for anyone trying to leave the building. You don't
want poorly installed wiring burning off toxic fumes into air vents, coming
down on top of a firefighter trying to save you or snagging on a door
between you and certain death.

Actually having an electrician do the work is always a good idea but this
stuff isn't something that a reasonably well-informaed DIY'er can't handle.

[wkearney99]

> We don't have 'codes'

IEEE regulations then?

> Maybe you should understand, this is x-posted to
> uk.tech.home-automation, I am local to the UK, what with me being in
> it. I am offering local help to people who read the aforementioned
> group.

[Lurch]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:49:49 -0500, "wkearney99"
<wkearney99@hotmail.com> strung together this:

>> We don't have 'codes'
>
>IEEE regulations then?

Nope, try IEE.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

[Lurch]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:43:41 -0500, "wkearney99"
<wkearney99@hotmail.com> strung together this:

>It's always a VERY good idea to consult with a local licensed electrician
>before installing *any* sort of wires.

Probably the best idea, most of what is on usenet is utter bollocks
anyway and shouldn't be relied upon for anything of a serious nature.

>If only at the counter of a local
>equipment supply place.

ot round here you wouldn't, electrical wholesalers aren't meant to
give out advice as they don't actually know how to install the stuff
but by advising people they infer they do so technically can be held
liable for improper guidelines if the customer gets it tits up.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

[Mick]

wkearney99 wrote:
>>While that theory is correct, the use of the cat5 in a c-bus system
>>requires you to run it in a circuit breaker box with all low voltage
>
> power.
>
> Low voltage or mains AC voltage? The difference is doubtless QUITE
> important to local codes. In the US it's verboten to mix the two
> improperly.
>
>
>>This is why Clipsal recomend the use of their pink cat5, it has a sheath
>>rating suitable for low voltage as opposed to that of standard cat5
>>which is not rated (ie to approx 600V for the pink stuff).
>
>
> 12v is low voltage, 24v is low voltage, usually in DC not AC. Mains 240VAC
> or 110 isn't what most would consider low voltage in a residential or office
> setting.
>
>
>>This does allow you to run it with your power cables and not violate any
>>codes (as a previous post mentioned).
>
>
> Depending on what 'power' you're talking about though. Granted this is
> certainly going to be mitigated by what the local electrical codes allow. A
> great many do not allow placement of AC mains voltage alongside low voltage
> control signals. If the OP's region is one that does then, well, that's
> great. I sort of doubt it but anything's possible.
>
> It's always a VERY good idea to consult with a local licensed electrician
> before installing *any* sort of wires. If only at the counter of a local
> equipment supply place. Bear in mind that building codes are there for more
> than just a electrical reasons. Proper installation of wiring isn't just to
> avoid fire or shock from electrical hazards. Badly installed wire presents
> other safety risks. Especially in the event of a fire caused by other
> reasons. Like risks for anyone trying to leave the building. You don't
> want poorly installed wiring burning off toxic fumes into air vents, coming
> down on top of a firefighter trying to save you or snagging on a door
> between you and certain death.
>
> Actually having an electrician do the work is always a good idea but this
> stuff isn't something that a reasonably well-informaed DIY'er can't handle.
>
under as3000
240Vac/dc-415Vac/dc is low voltage

24Vdc (or 32Vdc as used in the c-bus network) is extra low voltage.

Makes no difference if it is residential or not

horses for courses, depends on your standards