OT - Practical limits of USB cable

[Robert L. Bass]

I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most of
the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know what the
practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue I need a very
reliable connection. This will be used for processing large numbers of
studio images.

TIA

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[G. Morgan]

Subject: OT - Practical limits of USB cable
Newsgroup: comp.home.automation
=> Robert L. Bass <= wrote:

>I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most of
>the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know what the
>practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue I need a very
>reliable connection. This will be used for processing large numbers of
>studio images.


You're going to need at least one hub.

http://www.usb.org/faq/ans5/





--
-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

[Thad Smith]

Robert L. Bass wrote:
> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most of
> the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know what the
> practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue I need a very
> reliable connection. This will be used for processing large numbers of
> studio images.
>
> TIA
>

You should be able to find them, although they won't be in your typical
Circuit City stores (not much demand for a 15' cable)...

From http://www.usb.org/faq/ans5/

"In practice, the USB specification limits the length of a cable between
full speed devices to 5 meters (a little under 16 feet 5 inches). For a
low speed device the limit is 3 meters (9 feet 10 inches)."

I found a 16' cable on http://www.tripplite.com but your device has to
be a USB 2.0 device (http://www.tripplite.com/products/cables/usb.cfm)

Regards,

Thad Smith

[Robert L. Bass]

>> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most
>> of the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know what
>> the practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue I need
>> a very reliable connection. This will be used for processing large
>> numbers of studio images.
>
> You should be able to find them, although they won't be in your typical
> Circuit City stores (not much demand for a 15' cable)...
>
> From http://www.usb.org/faq/ans5/
>
> "In practice, the USB specification limits the length of a cable between
> full speed devices to 5 meters (a little under 16 feet 5 inches). For a
> low speed device the limit is 3 meters (9 feet 10 inches)."
>
> I found a 16' cable on http://www.tripplite.com but your device has to be
> a USB 2.0 device (http://www.tripplite.com/products/cables/usb.cfm)

Thanks. I'll pick up a hub and a couple of cables.

BTW, the camera is a Nikon digital SLR. I'm setting up a system to take
product photos for my website. There are lines which I sell where the
manufacturer has poor quality photos. One manufacturer doesn't allow anyone
to copy their images so I'll just take my own. I plan to create watermarked
images for all product lines as time allows. There are currently over
12,000 pages on my HA website. Within the next year it should roughly
double. Due to the scope of the task I need to set up a portable photo
studio.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Tech-Home]

Robert L. Bass wrote:
> >> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I
notice most
> >> of the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here
know what
> >> the practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue
I need
> >> a very reliable connection. This will be used for processing
large
> >> numbers of studio images.
> >
> > You should be able to find them, although they won't be in your
typical
> > Circuit City stores (not much demand for a 15' cable)...
> >
> > From http://www.usb.org/faq/ans5/
> >
> > "In practice, the USB specification limits the length of a cable
between
> > full speed devices to 5 meters (a little under 16 feet 5 inches).
For a
> > low speed device the limit is 3 meters (9 feet 10 inches)."
> >
> > I found a 16' cable on http://www.tripplite.com but your device has
to be
> > a USB 2.0 device (http://www.tripplite.com/products/cables/usb.cfm)
>
> Thanks. I'll pick up a hub and a couple of cables.
>
> BTW, the camera is a Nikon digital SLR. I'm setting up a system to
take
> product photos for my website. There are lines which I sell where
the
> manufacturer has poor quality photos. One manufacturer doesn't allow
anyone
> to copy their images so I'll just take my own. I plan to create
watermarked
> images for all product lines as time allows. There are currently
over
> 12,000 pages on my HA website. Within the next year it should
roughly
> double. Due to the scope of the task I need to set up a portable
photo
> studio.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> 2291 Pine View Circle
> Sarasota · Florida · 34231
> 877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
> http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
> =============================>

I run one device 30 ft. with USB extensions No Hub. I found them on
ebay really cheap. This is a printer and I have no issues with it. They
are Belkin gold if it makes a difference.

Brian
http://tech-home.com

[B Fuhrmann]

"Robert L. Bass" wrote ..
>>> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most
>>> of the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know
>>> what the practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue
>>> I need

and clairfied

> BTW, the camera is a Nikon digital SLR. I'm setting up a system to take
> product photos for my website. There are lines which I sell where the
> manufacturer has poor quality photos. One manufacturer doesn't allow
> anyone to copy their images so I'll just take my own. I plan to create
> watermarked images for all product lines as time allows. There are
> currently over

Assuming that you will need to be at the camera to take pictures and at the
computer to upload them, why not just carry the memory chip to the computer
with the pictures on it?
That is my preferred method of dumping the photos from my digital camera
(Minolta 7hi).
With photos for web use, you won't have to run the camera at it's highest
resolution and should be able to get 200-1000 pictures on a 1 gig chip.

[wkearney99]

> Assuming that you will need to be at the camera to take pictures and at
the
> computer to upload them, why not just carry the memory chip to the
computer
> with the pictures on it?

I'll second this suggestion. The speed from most card readers is usually a
lot faster than directly from the camera. That and often times accessing
the images directly from the camera requires extra drivers. And perhaps the
most important reason is durability. The connectors on most cameras are FAR
more fragile than that of a card reader. I find it's better to avoid the
plug/unplug fatigue on the camera's USB connector. I can replace a USB
reader for next to nothing, the cameras are not so cheap.

All that said, I've run USB cables 15' but have had trouble going further.
In the one situation where I needed more I simply put a powered hub in the
middle. Take care, however, to use a decent hub if speed is at all an
issue. For pulling images from a camera is might not be all that critical.
But for an mp3 sound card, image scanner or external hard drive it might.

-Bill Kearney

[Frank Olson]

"B Fuhrmann" <b-fuhrmann-usenet@mplsfridayDELETEskate.com> wrote in message
news:10tl2uaa44mr23d@corp.supernews.com...
> "Robert L. Bass" wrote ..
>>>> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice
>>>> most of the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here
>>>> know what the practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an
>>>> issue I need
>
> and clairfied
>
>> BTW, the camera is a Nikon digital SLR. I'm setting up a system to take
>> product photos for my website. There are lines which I sell where the
>> manufacturer has poor quality photos. One manufacturer doesn't allow
>> anyone to copy their images so I'll just take my own. I plan to create
>> watermarked images for all product lines as time allows. There are
>> currently over
>
> Assuming that you will need to be at the camera to take pictures and at
> the computer to upload them, why not just carry the memory chip to the
> computer with the pictures on it?
> That is my preferred method of dumping the photos from my digital camera
> (Minolta 7hi).
> With photos for web use, you won't have to run the camera at it's highest
> resolution and should be able to get 200-1000 pictures on a 1 gig chip.


I "third" that. Use the "docking bay" that comes with the camera to upload
your pictures from the chip. A good friend of mine manufactures sprockets,
cranks, and frames for mountain bikes. We set up a "studio" in his living
room consisting of a white sheet backdrop, a couple of high intensity
tungsten photo lamps on two protable stands, and a remote strobe with a
tungsten balanced light filter. Mind you we were using standard 35mm 100ASA
film. The whole idea is to eliminate shadow effects and present a clean
clear image of the product. The cool thing with digital photography is that
you can see the results almost immediately and change your camera position
to nullify reflection effects. On curved surfaces that isn't a problem, but
if you're going to be taking pictures of keypads and panels with flat shiny
surfaces...

[John O]

>On curved surfaces that isn't a problem, but if you're going to be taking
>pictures of keypads and panels with flat shiny surfaces...
>

....you need a polarizer.

;-)

-John O
at least that's what I'd try first.

[B Fuhrmann]

Robert L. Bass" wrote ..
> BTW, the camera is a Nikon digital SLR.

That line says a lot. Some people seem to have missed it's implications.

"wkearney99" wrote ...
> The speed from most card readers is usually a
> lot faster than directly from the camera.

You are going way out on a limb there. The speed is primarily determined by
the card and the interface used to dump the data. Newer cameras are likely
to have a USB2 interface, just like newer card readers.

> That and often times accessing
> the images directly from the camera requires extra drivers.

Another major leap. It may have been true on some old digital cameras or on
computers before Win NT or XP. The earlier versions of Windows required a
driver to read the USB as a disk drive, newer ones don't. The same driver
is needed regardless if it is reading a camera or a memory card reader.
The "digital SLR"s are much newer than my old Nikon Coolpix. It doesn't
need special software.

> And perhaps the
> most important reason is durability. The connectors on most cameras are
> FAR
> more fragile than that of a card reader. I find it's better to avoid the
> plug/unplug fatigue on the camera's USB connector. I can replace a USB
> reader for next to nothing, the cameras are not so cheap.

Bingo! I had forgotten about that being one of the many reasons I decided
to not use USB for my cameras. Others being that I tend to leave my desk
cluttered, so I don't want to add a camera to the mess and that I really
didn't want to have ANOTHER CABLE plugged in and cluttering things more or
unplugged and getting misplaced.

"Frank Olson" wrote ...
> I "third" that. Use the "docking bay" that comes with the camera to
> upload
> your pictures from the chip. A good friend of mine manufactures
> sprockets,

A docking station IS NOT the same as using a memory card reader.
It is basicaly just a more durable way (than a cable direct to the camera)
to connect the camera directly through the USB port. That makes it
equivalent (but more awkward) to what he origonally asked for.

I doubt that his NIKON DIGITAL SLR has a docking station available.

I suspect that the reason he wanted to connect a cable directly to the
camera is that he wanted to be able to leave the camera set up ready to
shoot more products.
He could not do that with a docking station but can easily do that by
pulling the memory card.

[Dan]

Robert L. Bass wrote:
> I need to connect a camera to a PC about 15-25 feet away. I notice most of
> the USB cables seem to be 10 feet or less. Does anyone here know what the
> practical limit is for USB cable? Although length is an issue I need a very
> reliable connection. This will be used for processing large numbers of
> studio images.
>
> TIA
>
There are several USB device servers on the market now which allow you
to attach your USB device to the network, so it could be anywhere in the
house as long as you have a live network jack (not sure if it works with
a wireless connection). Keyspan is one of the companies if I remember
correctly, but another company just came out with such a device which
seems to support a wider range of USB devices. The product is called
SX-1000U USB Device Server by Silex Technology America. I am working on
getting a review model so I can see how well this works in a home
automation environment.

dan

[Robert L. Bass]

>> Assuming that you will need to be at the
>> camera to take pictures and at the computer
>> to upload them, why not just carry the
>> memory chip to the computer with the
>> pictures on it?
>
> I'll second this suggestion.

Thanks. I had been doing it this way until recently. Now I'm using "Nikon
Capture" software to adjust, focus and shoot the camera. The software
allows me to catalog each shot -- product name & number, etc -- and edit it
simultaneously. A helper removes the product from the table and places the
next one.

The software allows me to view each shot, make adjustments and reshoot if
necessary. To function efficiently I need to be in front of the PC more
than the camera.

Today I ran down to Circuit City and bought an over-priced 10 foot USB
extension cable. I plugged it into the end of the 6 foot camera cable and
it worked fine. Now all I need is to arrange the PC table where the camera
can reach it without interfering with my work flow.

I appreciate all the advice, folks. I'll let you know how things work out.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Robert L. Bass]

> I doubt that his NIKON DIGITAL SLR has a
> docking station available...

I'm not aware of a docking station for the D70. That doesn't mean it
doesn't exist though. I bought the camera last year and I'm just getting
used to it.

> I suspect that the reason he wanted to connect a
> cable directly to the camera is that he wanted to
> be able to leave the camera set up ready to shoot more products.

Yes, that's part of it. The other side is that I want to operate the camera
from the PC. This new software allows me to view the shot, adjust the
camera settings and take it again if necessary right from the PC.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Robert L. Bass]

>> if you're going to be taking pictures of keypads
>> and panels with flat shiny surfaces...
>
> ...you need a polarizer.

You can place a polarized filter on the lens if needed. I also use soft
light sources to minimize glare and soften shadows. It's sometimes easier
to get rid of pesky reflections by moving one or more of the lights than
changing the camera position.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Robert L. Bass]

> I run one device 30 ft. with USB extensions
> No Hub. I found them on ebay really cheap.
> This is a printer and I have no issues with it.
> They are Belkin gold if it makes a difference.

Thanks Brian. I got a 10 foot extension and it seems to work OK. I'm still
tweaking the setup. As soon as I get it working the way I want I'll post
the whole story if anyone's interested. Another poster mentioned a USB to
LAN system. That's probably beyond my requirements for the present but it
sounds interesting enough that I might try one out anyway.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Sylvan Butler]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:10:02 -0600, B Fuhrmann <b-fuhrmann-usenet@mplsfridayDELETEskate.com> wrote:
> "wkearney99" wrote ...
>> And perhaps the
>> most important reason is durability. The connectors on most cameras are
>> FAR
>> more fragile than that of a card reader. I find it's better to avoid the
>> plug/unplug fatigue on the camera's USB connector. I can replace a USB
>> reader for next to nothing, the cameras are not so cheap.
>
> Bingo! I had forgotten about that being one of the many reasons I decided
> to not use USB for my cameras.

But which would you rather wear out, the USB connector or the memory
card connector on the camera?

I know personally, if one of them were to wear out, I'd much rather it
be the USB connector on the camera, since that way the camera is still
usable if I use a card reader to read the memory card.

Once the memory card connector on the camera wears out, the camera is
toast.

sdb

--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

[wkearney99]

> But which would you rather wear out, the USB connector or the memory
> card connector on the camera?
>
> I know personally, if one of them were to wear out, I'd much rather it
> be the USB connector on the camera, since that way the camera is still
> usable if I use a card reader to read the memory card.
>
> Once the memory card connector on the camera wears out, the camera is
> toast.

The hardware cycling of a CF slot is undoubtedly more reliable than the
incredibly fragile and tiny USB connectors they put on the sides of cameras.

Besides, the camera is likely to be obsolete WELL before the card slot wears
out.

I've used PCMCIA and CF devices for nigh on a decade now and have NEVER worn
out the slot on any of the devices I've ever used. And I've been far less
than careful in my handling of them. I have, on more than one occasion,
broken a USB connector even when trying to be careful. Mainly due to a
yanked cable wrecking the connector.

You also assume that damaging the USB connector won't also destroy the
camera's functionality. Given how many cameras are laid out on the inside
(I've seen several) I wouldn't bet on that assumption.

What becomes clear, however, after the thread developed, is that Robert
wants to make use of the PC for it's software and use the camera under PC
control. That offers a different perspective on the question. I'd still be
worried about damaging the camera by accidentally tripping over the USB
cable or something. Given that same situation I'd feel better using a
laptop attached to the camera and placed closer. To avoid both the cable
distance problems and damage risks.

But hey, everything in life's a risk so it's good to hear Robert's actually
gotten it working with one of those overpriced big-box store cables.

-Bill Kearney

[Robert L. Bass]

> But which would you rather wear out, the USB
> connector or the memory card connector on the
> camera?

In my application that's probably going to be a non-issue. I want to keep
the camera connected to the PC all the time.

> Once the memory card connector on the camera
> wears out, the camera is toast.

I regard wear and tear as an excuse to buy the latest new toys.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Sylvan Butler]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:53:36 -0500, wkearney99 <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> But which would you rather wear out, the USB connector or the memory
>> card connector on the camera?

> The hardware cycling of a CF slot is undoubtedly more reliable than the
> incredibly fragile and tiny USB connectors they put on the sides of cameras.

I have four digicams in use at home, friends and extended family at
least a dozen more, and none of them use CF. MMC/SD, a couple of xD,
but no CF. (I regret it every time I shop for memory cards...)

CF and SD connectors, maybe others, are typically specified as "up to
10,000 mating cycles" for the very good quality ones. What does "up to"
mean to you? To me it means "maybe I'll get half that, if I'm lucky."
Did your digicam use "very good quality" connectors? Most don't, that's
why they put such a crap usb connector on there.

Granted, most mini-usb connectors are worse, at about 5000 cycles, but
I've replaced a couple of those and it was a lot easier than getting to
and replacing memory card sockets.

> than careful in my handling of them. I have, on more than one occasion,
> broken a USB connector even when trying to be careful. Mainly due to a
> yanked cable wrecking the connector.

A "yanked cable" is "trying to be careful" ???

I've broken a few, but mostly only when knocking something off the desk
or dropping it so the cable catches a sideways force. There was once I
tried to plug the wrong cable into the camera and bent a pin...

> You also assume that damaging the USB connector won't also destroy the
> camera's functionality. Given how many cameras are laid out on the inside
> (I've seen several) I wouldn't bet on that assumption.

Hasn't yet for me. (knock on wood ;)

sdb
--
Wanted: Omnibook 800 & accessories, cheap, working or not
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com