Can C-Bus PIR's be used in Minder for security

[tavsec]

Does anyone know how you get to see the C-bus PIR's in Minder, so you can use them to trigger in a security scenario?

I followed my local CIS rep's advice and only put in the C-Bus sensors, as he informed me they could be used for both.

It would be extremely difficult to retrofit separate PIR's now (It's a 2 storey house and it's finished) without cutting holes everywhere to route cabling

[coppo1]

I followed my local CIS rep's advice and only put in the C-Bus sensors, as he informed me they could be used for both.



Whichever CIS rep suggested this to you should be marched around the back of the bike shed......

Reason 1:
The C-Bus detectors are not a security detector and do not conform to Australian Standards for security detectors.

Reason 2:
If you don't use security detectors and authorised security equipment, and FORUMADMIN could probably interject here, you possibly void any insurance claim, thus you are liable for providing a non-AS certified system.

Reason 3:
Because C-Bus detectors are "occupancy sensors" they turn on straight away, they do not have the "delay" function like a security detector. Security detectors must sense an intruder for a number of counts within a given time frame, then activate a contact...to reduce false alarms.

C-Bus sensors do not have this specific design, at the best all you can do is fudge the sensing time, thus making it less sensitive.

The only valid suggestion i have seen with using a sensor for security and lighting control, is using "Security PIRS" to perform both functions. That way you use your scenarios to dictate what goes on.....

[Forumadmin]

Errr,

I've been away, however I gotta agree here 110%. Minder and security are not to be used in the same sentence.

Although I've used standard security sensors with minder I don't recommend it for what its worth.

[tavsec]

Are you suggesting Minder is totally unsuitable for security??

I did manage to figure out a way of getting Minder to pick up a trigger from CBus to register an alarm.

Under the second tab of the sensor GUI's - labelled Sunset (See attached Image), there's a security section, where you can specify an output device to pulse when movement is detected. I picked a circuit I'm not currently using, as the family thought it rather strange when the patio lights started flashing when they walked through the family room.

I then pointed Minder to this circuit to detect movement in my Intrusion scenario.

The main hassle I see is using a mechanical device like a relay created a lot of wear & tear on this device, which would prematurely wear out - it would be better to be able to point the PIR's to a solid state device (and avoid driving the wife nuts in our home theatre with the constant clicking in the adjacent wall).

Someone at Clipsal must have intended them for this use, otherwise why bother with the function?

I can understand the issues with the CBus PIR's being not ideal for security - surely Clipsal should consider updating their design to reduce false triggering, or can some of the global settings be varied to reduce the problem.

I will probably install some separate security PIR's anyway, as we have 2 cats indoors, who I found at my old house triggered conventional PIR's when they both jumped off our bed together when parcels were delivered.

I used Visonic K-940 Petsmart PIR's (http://www.visonic.com/visintl/doclib.nsf/0/243E6FB5A3503EC5C225668C00387844) which have a special lense that does not respond to horizontal heat signatures under 18kg

[coppo1]

Are you suggesting Minder is totally unsuitable for security??

I did manage to figure out a way of getting Minder to pick up a trigger from CBus to register an alarm.


I think you're failing to recognise one of the main problems here with your focus on the C-Bus PIR.......

C-Bus is not a secure bus.

C-Bus if shorted ( 0 volt) will typically default all outputs to ON ( back in the old blackbox days)

Do you really want this unsecured bus to be acting as your "security system" ??

I have seen other manufacturers use the term "security" as well, in particular for some of the "thru-beam" door entry buzzers, where it really isn't a "security" device more of a "warning", this is its intended use.

You have noted that the commands used on this "security" setting cause the output to flash on then off repeatedly...

This "flashing" behaviour should be some indication to you of what is happening on the C-Bus network, "repeated on - off -on off' commands being sent.

If you have enough of these PIRS setup as "security" you will flood the network with control commands and bring it to its knees. :o

[Forumadmin]

Are you suggesting Minder is totally unsuitable for security??


Yes, thats what I'm saying. the best way to have minder do security is to integrate a SECURITY PANEL into the minder. Have minder look at the status of the panel and DO whatever you want it to do, like turn lights off and on etc etc. Security panels are so cheap these days its a case of "why re-invent the wheel"?
It really is that simple. Minder is not a security panel even tho you could, with some exceptions get it to work.
cheers

[coppo1]

C-Bus is not a secured bus.



following on from this and the security angle......

anyone who has downloaded the "recommended application numbers" document from the CIS website, it recommends specific C-Bus applications to be used for specific purposes.....

http://www.clipsal.com/cis/pdf_files/ApplicationIDNumbers.pdf

This states that CIS has reserved an application for "SECURITY".
appication number = $D0.

This does not mean that C-Bus will be a security system. Its purpose is to enable C-Bus components to send some restricted commands to security systems, ie: ARM security command sent from a C-Bus touchscreen.

but most definitely not "DISARM" or "PIR" triggered commands.

It also falls in line with the C-Bus "enabled program" that is encouraging some Security panel manufacturers to create C-Bus interfaces for their security panels, so their panels can then send commands to C-Bus for turning some lights on and having C-Bus remote arm their panel, and so forth.

[tavsec]

OK, point taken - what security panels do you use & recommend to work with Cbus and/or Minder?

It's sounding like the Minder keypads will be superfluous, so a preference would be a panel that works with keypads that are daisy chained together, so I can use the existing Minder keypad wiring, rather than star wiring.

I think I know where I'd like to shove these keypads next time I see the local rep - I better not forget the Vaseline

[chrism]

You guys are confusing C-Bus and Minder. C-Bus is not a secure bus but Minder is a different story. It is a recognised security system and uses standard security sensors. The original post referred to C-Bus sensors which are not suitable for security. Minder (although now defunct) is a very good security system. The only problem is with those who don't know how to install and program it. I/we have installed and programmed in excess of 650 Minders and have had no more problems, than with any other panel. We have also looked at dozens of panels which we were asked to 'fix up' and they were in every case, poorly wired and/or programmed.

Never, ever use C-Bus sensors for security. As Coppo pointed out, they are not suitable

Cheers

[Tom Kecil]

As Chris says, Minder is a recognised security system. I've used it as one and found the setup fairly simple, including creating zones by grouping several sensors using scenarios. My sensors are standard security sensors but back to the original question...

Does anyone know how you get to see the C-bus PIR's in Minder, so you can use them to trigger in a security scenario?


As long as your Minder has the C-Bus interface on it, you can see all the C-Bus units which means you can see what they're up to and respond accordingly. Under "Edit System Configuration", add the C-Bus interface, then add the units. You can do this with the help of the free V2 C-Bus software if you don't know what their addresses are. I have 2 C-Bus PIRs on my C-Bus network at home and can see them in Minder's GUI just the same as I can the standard security sensors, so I could easily add them to the security setup. I haven't because 1) the standard security sensors are more secure 2) Standard ones are cheaper!

As mentioned, a C-Bus network is not all that secure but it is run through internal cavities so you'd have to be pretty clever to get to it without triggering a sensor and anyone that determined to break in (they'd have to know I have a C-Bus installation for starters...) would probably find half a dozen easier or cruder methods anyway. I'm not trying to protect a bank, only make myself a less attractive target than all my neighbours who have no alarm system at all...

BTW, I find the Minder LCD keypad easy to use and it does what I need.

On another note, follow links from other posts on this forum as I've done and a few quick emails will show you that Minder, most probably with your current hardware, does not have to be considered 'defunct' at all.