best deal on lutron radio ra?

[wkearney99]

Who's the least expensive supplier of lutron radio ra units?

Given the continuing delays with zigbee I'm considering it instead.

Lord knows it's f'ing expensive but my days of putting up with X-10 are
over.

[Dandelion Acres]

Look into UPB (Universal Powerline Bus). It's the next generation of
powerline control. X-10 will die a slow and deserved death.

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:__OdnVtGWaNn9-zfRVn-uw@speakeasy.net...
> Who's the least expensive supplier of lutron radio ra units?
>
> Given the continuing delays with zigbee I'm considering it instead.
>
> Lord knows it's f'ing expensive but my days of putting up with X-10 are
> over.
>

[Dean Roddey]

Or Z-Wave which is is a Zigbee variant that's here now.

------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com

[Robert L. Bass]

> X-10 will die a slow and deserved death.

It's already been doing that for what, 40 years? And yet it's still the
most widely used technology in the HA industry. :(

[Forumadmin]

Except Australia

[wkearney99]

> > X-10 will die a slow and deserved death.
>
> It's already been doing that for what, 40 years? And yet it's still the
> most widely used technology in the HA industry. :(

Yeah, and shit's the most widely produced substance on earth. Quantity
doesn't equate to quality.

That the market hasn't chosen something better has had many reasons. Most
of which could probably be summed up by price. X-10 survived because it was
cheap. Damn near anything else could succeed even if it only 'sucked
differently' but it had the same price-point. Sadly most other efforts
failed to hit the right price point.

But what really sucks about X-10, beyond the incredibly annoying
inconsistencies in operation, is their feel and operation. The buttons have
always felt cheap. That they didn't WORK reliably is one thing. But that
they failed to work in ways people expect is even worse. Those ugly-ass
buttons, the remotes you have to press, and press, and press, modules
flipping on/off seemingly at random. Noise and phase voodoo, it all adds
up... to a BIG negative.

I want some dimmers that have good button feel, work in scene configurations
and actually work reliably. This most certainly ain't X10. None of the
aftermarket swtiches work any better because of their dependence on the X-10
protocol and other powerline stuff seems no better.

I like that Radio RA has a friendly set of dimmers and scene controllers. I
can put 'em on the wall and have to do nothing for normal people to use them
without instructions. Sure, they're expensive, that's what I asked the
question.

If/when/ever zigbee gets off the ground and someone makes decent switches
and scene controllers then I'd certainly like to take a look at it.
Economies of scale, open standards and a wide-range of participating vendors
are all prime reasons to look forward to it. Z-wave seems like a fine idea
but I've seen the switches and didn't like them. Nor are there any in-wall
scene controllers.

Meanwhile I've had 15 years of putting up with X-10 and I have no desire to
continue. I want something that just works, if it costs me a lot more then
I simply want to find the best deal.

-Bill Kearney

[Robert L. Bass]

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IMqdnQLzTKFf-O_fRVn-3A@speakeasy.net...
>> > X-10 will die a slow and deserved death.
>>
>> It's already been doing that for what, 40 years? And yet it's still the
>> most widely used technology in the HA industry. :(
>
> Yeah, and shit's the most widely produced substance on earth. Quantity
> doesn't equate to quality.

I wasn't defending it. I don't like X10 and I rarely even comment on it. I
was only stating that I don't beliieve it's going away any time soon.

> That the market hasn't chosen something better
> has had many reasons. Most of which could
> probably be summed up by price. X-10 survived
> because it was cheap.

That's one reason. It's also fairly simple to get started using X10 so a
lot of people have chosen it. Most of the other technologies, up until just
recently at laeast, have entailed a steeper learning curve. I believe that
Z-Wave will take a major chunk out of X10's pie over the next few years as
more products become available.

> Damn near anything else could succeed even
> if it only 'sucked differently' but it had the
> same price-point. Sadly most other efforts
> failed to hit the right price point.

If price were the only concern there would be no Camry's or Odyssey's --
only Carollas and Civics. I agree that price is one of the major points but
quality issues become more important as the price gap to the next level
narrows. Look for better than current prices and a wider product array with
Z-Wave pretty soon.

> --- snip a bunch of stuff on which we agree ---

> I like that Radio RA has a friendly set of dimmers
> and scene controllers.

I don't like Lutron because of the lousy service -- no, make that the total
lack of service -- they gave my church when we had problems with a Lutron
commercial dimming system. I also think that Radio RA is over priced. Its
expansion capabilities are questionable, too. When I tried to get answers
regarding an expanded RA's control capabilities I got a lot of
non-responsive replies from the RA salesman. This was also indicative of a
poor attitude toward prospective clients and dealers -- enough to make me
stear clear as a dealer.

> I want something that just works, if it costs
> me a lot more then I simply want to find the
> best deal.

Same here.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

[Mark Thomas]

Bill,

I'm switching from X-10 to UPB. What's nice is that there are a few
manufacturers of UPB products, and most of the must-have stuff is
already available. Not only are there switches, lamp/appliance modules,
and scene controllers, but there are outlets and inline hard-wire
modules and a cool I/O module which is like a mix of universal modules
and powerflashes. The options for the 3 inputs on this module are
contact, phone ring, voltage detect, audio sense (-30 or -10 dBV),
current sense, or doorbell. More stuff to come, too--I can't wait.

It's much cheaper than RadioRA. So far, it's been 100% reliable for me
too.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel more comfortable with a reliable
powerline solution. With the proliferation of electronics communicating
wirelessly these days, who knows what future device could interfere
with your house? It's like the X-10 worry that the next thing you plug
in will take down your house.

[Dandelion Acres]

I don't want anybody to confuse X-10 with UPB. They are both powerline
products but that is where the similarity ends. UPB is MUCH more robust with
a much greater command set allowable.

X-10 had a strong patent, and UPB uses the same principles that X-10 has for
years. Only with the expiration of the patent development has thrived and
products are flooding the markets with much more modern technology.

RF is cool too, but as Mark points out it has to satisfy both the
performance, price and appearance needs of the consumer.

"Mark Thomas" <mrt@thomaszone.com> wrote in message
news:1114798588.496935.171480@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
> Bill,
>
> I'm switching from X-10 to UPB. What's nice is that there are a few
> manufacturers of UPB products, and most of the must-have stuff is
> already available. Not only are there switches, lamp/appliance modules,
> and scene controllers, but there are outlets and inline hard-wire
> modules and a cool I/O module which is like a mix of universal modules
> and powerflashes. The options for the 3 inputs on this module are
> contact, phone ring, voltage detect, audio sense (-30 or -10 dBV),
> current sense, or doorbell. More stuff to come, too--I can't wait.
>
> It's much cheaper than RadioRA. So far, it's been 100% reliable for me
> too.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but I feel more comfortable with a reliable
> powerline solution. With the proliferation of electronics communicating
> wirelessly these days, who knows what future device could interfere
> with your house? It's like the X-10 worry that the next thing you plug
> in will take down your house.
>

[wkearney99]

> Maybe it's just me, but I feel more comfortable with a reliable
> powerline solution. With the proliferation of electronics communicating
> wirelessly these days, who knows what future device could interfere
> with your house? It's like the X-10 worry that the next thing you plug
> in will take down your house.

Eh, powerline as reliable? I've not found that to be the case. Line noise
and other factors have plagued PLC forever. While the RF spectrum is not
without it's issues for a single family home it can work well. In a crowded
condo or apartment building it's another matter but that's also going to be
the case with PLC as well.

But what really drives my interest is actual attention to use by non-savvy
personnel. The switchgear on most home automation systems just sucks.
Combine that with various oddball interfaces and it becomes something that
normal people end up hating. They just want to whack a switch and have the
lights WORK. The scene controllers for Radio RA come the closest I've seen
to anything approaching that. At least without getting into even higher-end
systems like Vantage or Crestron.

[wkearney99]

> If price were the only concern there would be no Camry's or Odyssey's --
> only Carollas and Civics. I agree that price is one of the major points
but
> quality issues become more important as the price gap to the next level
> narrows. Look for better than current prices and a wider product array
with
> Z-Wave pretty soon.

"Soon" is a word that's been heard for way too many years in the home
automation realm.

> I also think that Radio RA is over priced. Its
> expansion capabilities are questionable, too. When I tried to get answers
> regarding an expanded RA's control capabilities I got a lot of
> non-responsive replies from the RA salesman. This was also indicative of
a
> poor attitude toward prospective clients and dealers -- enough to make me
> stear clear as a dealer.

I'll take your word for it. My recent phone calls with Radio RA support
folks were VERY helpful. Their rep went so far as to take my number, call
around for local sources AND call me back within a half-hour. One might
guess this being possible because of the obscene profit margins on the
equipment. I did find, however, that no retail or distributor personnel knew
WTF they were talking about regarding it. Not that they knew anything about
other systems either.

As for expansion, yeah, there do seem to be limitations. That and the
interfacing hardware is even MORE obscenely overpriced. But for lighting
I'm unlikely to exceed it's limits anytime soon.

> > I want something that just works, if it costs
> > me a lot more then I simply want to find the
> > best deal.
>
> Same here.

Yeah, it's the old "good, fast, cheap... pick two" conundrum.

-Bill

[Dean Roddey]

Given how well my previous attempt to help was taken, I hate to even
contribute anything else... But, from having done a driver for RA, my
understanding is that it supports 32 units (dimmers or switches), and you
can bridge two systems together for 64. That's just going by what I remember
from having done the driver, and maybe there are other issues involved. But
64 units is probably enough for a pretty large house.

-------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QsCdnWDmI55EWuvfRVn-og@speakeasy.net...
> As for expansion, yeah, there do seem to be limitations. That and the
> interfacing hardware is even MORE obscenely overpriced. But for lighting
> I'm unlikely to exceed it's limits anytime soon.
>
>> > I want something that just works, if it costs
>> > me a lot more then I simply want to find the
>> > best deal.
>>
>> Same here.
>

[wkearney99]

"Dean Roddey" <droddey@charmedquark.com> wrote in message
news:ASBde.1559$5o2.251@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com ...
> Given how well my previous attempt to help was taken, I hate to even
> contribute anything else...

Everyone has a bad day... on both sides of a conversation.

> But, from having done a driver for RA, my
> understanding is that it supports 32 units (dimmers or switches), and you
> can bridge two systems together for 64. That's just going by what I
remember
> from having done the driver, and maybe there are other issues involved.
But
> 64 units is probably enough for a pretty large house.

Even 32 isn't all that much of a restriction when handling just lighting.
Going further into automating outlets and appliances could certainly be a
problem.

Given how hideously expensive the Radio RA stuff is I'm still willing to
consider other solutions. I've found the switch feel and operation on all
X-10 based stuff to be unacceptable. The current z-wave stuff isn't much
better (perhaps "less worse?"). Does anyone else make the same sort of wall
scene controllers and self-programmable dimmers that a Radio RA system
provides? Wired or wireless but without doing home-run rewiring.

It's the combination of flexible wall-mounted scene controllers, good switch
feel and self-programmable dimmer levels that make it appealing. Being able
to adjust the dimmer level right on the faceplate without having to jump
through programming hoops is a nice feature. Being able to control several
dimmers together on a wall-mounted scene controller is likewise important.
Who else's scene controllers are similarly flexible?

-Bill Kearney

[Mark Thomas]

wkearney99 wrote:
> Eh, powerline as reliable? I've not found that to be the case.

You're confusing "powerline" with "X-10".

> Line noise and other factors have plagued PLC forever.

Correction: line noise and other factors have plagued X-10 forever.
UPB just works.

> In a crowded
> condo or apartment building it's another matter but that's also going
to be
> the case with PLC as well.

UPB can handle 63,750 devices. I'm sure you'd be able to make it work
in a high-density situation.

> But what really drives my interest is actual attention to use by
non-savvy
> personnel. The switchgear on most home automation systems just
sucks.
> Combine that with various oddball interfaces and it becomes something
that
> normal people end up hating.

You'll have to define what you mean by "suck". There are many
manufacturers of UPB devices (HAI, PCS, Simply Automated, Web
Mountain), all of which have different product lines.

> They just want to whack a switch and have the
> lights WORK.

This has been my experience with UPB. Don't dismiss UPB out of hand,
just because powerline reminds you of X-10. UPB is a different animal.

- Mark.